Evidence of meeting #142 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was hamel.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
It's not exactly leased. It's theirs, and then it's issued to us if we meet all of the requirements.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It sounds a lot like an employer to me. That's a very important distinction to make in this.
Ms. Bednar, you wrote a book called The Big Fix: How Companies Capture Markets and Harm Canadians. Can you talk about ways in which Uber, Lyft, Amazon and others have worked to provide what I would call regulatory capture of legislation, whether it's at the municipal level or gaps federally that seem to be outside the control of our regular labour laws and our tax laws? Can you speak to why you think companies are able to capture the markets? What role does capturing some of the regulation also play in that?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
There's a book I read by the first lobbyist for Uber, who talked about their strategy at the time, which I understand has evolved over time. I'm not a direct expert on regulatory capture. I have done some work on it, and it does occur occasionally that some legislation can be seen as legitimizing for a new form of business. Large companies—or any kind of company—may have particular interests, but a lot of what we're seeing defies economics 101.
Your colleague asked me earlier what other policy tools we have. In the pandemic, under Premier Ford, the delivery commission, which tends to be 30% and stay at 30%, was lowered and temporarily capped. Now, one time when I wrote about price controls, someone tweeted at me that the 1970s called and they want their policy idea back.
However, as you learn in economics 101, when there's a new entrant to a marketplace, the price tends to go down. On that 30% commission, if Uber Eats is in a marketplace, and then SkipTheDishes comes, and I roll in with my Instacart app, that commission stays at 30%. That's what we've also heard from restaurants. We focused on the wages for workers and the price. Those third parties really end up hurting their business, and that's why people encourage them to go directly. That's another policy tool; there's another opportunity there.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Given your subject matter expertise in tech, in your opinion, is there adequate informed consent to the type of information that would be retained and used in the algorithms that would create a profile on me, potentially, as a passenger, or on Mr. Wedge as a driver? Do you think that, in that process and in that basic commercial contract, the consumer and the actual driver have given adequately informed consent to allow the use of their information that ultimately drives these prices?
Executive Director, Master of Public Policy in Digital Society Program, McMaster University, As an Individual
I doubt it. Also, for the workers, we heard about the depreciation of their pay. They don't have the privilege of understanding how that pay is determined. We have heard about their flexibility and their ultimate—to use a word that's very attractive—choice. We've seen experiments where the same ride at the same time of day for the same distance is micro-calculated and calibrated at a range of different fees.
We also hear anecdotally from drivers who feel that they are penalized for not accepting that ride. You have a choice to not accept that ride, but there is a consequence for not taking that $10 ride from the airport, and that may be that the availability of work, which is controlled by the employer and which is not freely accessible to you, is depreciated.
December 3rd, 2024 / 4:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
That concludes round one. We're going to go to our five-minute rounds with the Conservatives followed by the Liberals, and then two and a half minutes each for the Bloc and the NDP.
Mr. Caputo you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you.
Thank you to all the witnesses.
Mr. Wedge, you talked about the maximum charge versus the minimum accepted. In a few seconds, can you just explain what you meant by that, please?
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
As I said, it will look at that rider to see what they've experienced paying over their history for that ride, and then maybe add a surcharge or a surge fee for the time of day. It then looks at the driver, at their desperation aspect or what's called their “acceptance rate”. As that gets low, you get in trouble with Uber. Then it will offer you what it thinks is the lowest amount you will accept, based on your desperation to stay with Uber or to just keep going on the platform.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
To be clear, Mr. Cooper and I could both be Uber customers, and for the exact same trip, we will pay different prices.
President, Rideshare Drivers Association of Ontario
Absolutely.
A group of drivers will all be offered a different amount for that same ride.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Wow. I'm an Uber customer. I'll tell you that this came to me about three or four weeks ago. I was going to the airport, and there was surge pricing. I think I paid $45 or $50. I had to get there. We were just talking, and I believe the driver said that he was getting something like $13 or $15 for the trip. Does that sound right?
Conservative
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
I don't have that data on hand, and I can't comment on a specific trip without having the details.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
With all due respect, sir, you are the public relations officer. I think you probably have a good idea of what things cost. Why don't you tell us, on average, what amount of a fare goes to the driver, and what amount goes to Uber?
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
It varies by city, by province and, of course, by regulation.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Sir, I'm not asking about.... I think the question is very clear. What is the average? I don't care about cities. I don't care about surge pricing. Somebody at Uber knows—and you are here representing them—what the average amount is that goes to a driver as opposed to Uber. Surely you have that number.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
A number of factors come into play, such as government rates. In Quebec, for example, Uber's service fees will vary from—
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Okay, let's say it's for Ontario. Give us the average in Ontario, if we need to narrow it down.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
As I said earlier, in Ontario and British Columbia, drivers know what they're going to get paid before they accept the trip. It's important to be very clear about that.
Having said that, because—
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
I don't mean to interrupt you, sir. I'm asking what I think is a very clear question here. I don't want to hear about factors and things like that, because at the end of the day, there is an average. Regression moves towards the mean. We've all heard this in statistics and things like that. Even the NDP is agreeing with me.
What is it in Ontario? Please, just give us a number.
Public Affairs Manager, Uber Canada
Every week, drivers receive a document on all of their income. Drivers have access to all the information.
Unfortunately, I can't give you specific data on that.
Conservative
Frank Caputo Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
I know that my time is up, but we do need answers to these questions. I think they're fairly straightforward.
Mr. Hamel, would you be prepared to provide the committee with the information I requested, with a province-by-province breakdown or, if Uber likes, a city-by-city breakdown, if that's a factor that's necessary?