Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I can help my colleague clarify the situation. The decision to terminate is a business decision. That's clear. That's why it comes from the Department of Innovation, Science and Economic Development, not from Mr. Dufresne's office. I'd like to thank him for clarifying that earlier.

However, a number of things can happen at the same time in the world of social media. Frankly, for people who still have doubts, I have a tip: TikTok is a Chinese app, so if you have doubts, don't download it. It's quite simple.

I'd like to talk about an app that's much more common and popular in our area, Facebook or Meta. I have my own accounts. My children tell me that they're not very interesting, and so much the better. To me, it's a way of posting personal photos and communicating with the public.

Mr. Dufresne, a very interesting ruling has just been handed down concerning Meta, and I believe that your office was involved in it.

Can you tell us about the regulations that have been announced and whether you're satisfied with them? Does this show that your office has powers?

[Philippe Dufresne]

If you're talking about the class action settlement that was brought before the courts, we weren't involved in that case.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

That's true. That was in 2018, wasn't it?

[Philippe Dufresne]

However, on our side, we investigated the Cambridge Analytica scandal, which affected Facebook. We had to take it to the Federal Court because we don't have the power to issue an order, and we won in the Federal Court of Appeal this fall. That was an important victory. The Federal Court recognized that, in the Cambridge Analytica case, there had been a shortcoming in the way Facebook obtained consent and protected user information. Facebook is now trying to go to the Supreme Court to overturn that decision.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

It's still reassuring, because, not so long ago, five or ten years ago, we seemed powerless before the web giants, like Facebook, and now we know that there are two cases where your office or users were able to take action against that company, and I'm sure there will be more.

Can you tell us a little bit more about how that went? As for TikTok, I understand that this is still to come.

[Philippe Dufresne]

What I would say about the cases involving Facebook is that it shows that the regime can apply and decisions can be obtained, but that it still takes time. The Cambridge Analytica case, for example, goes back to 2018. It would take less time if I had the authority to issue orders. That's why we recommended this and your committee recommended the same thing. That's the challenge I still see, because technology and websites are changing very quickly. Ideally, we need to be able to make decisions and execute them more quickly.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I agree, because we know that web giants have already resorted to tactics such as intimidation, blackmail and threats. That's disappointing. That reminds me of other times when we depended on the railways or other forms of communication. It's important for the government to take action to protect people.

Do you think the current legislation is adequate? I know you have very little time.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Please give a quick answer.

[Philippe Dufresne]

I think we need to modernize both the public sector law and the private sector law.

A bill is before Parliament for the private sector, but not the public sector. It's important that Parliament take action in this regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Madam Shanahan and Mr. Dufresne.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to ask short questions.

Mr. Dufresne, you say that having a law regarding the public sector is essential.

Do you think that issuing orders and having the authority to impose sanctions are essential to your work? You mentioned that in the past.

[Philippe Dufresne]

That's essential for both the private and public sectors.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right.

Would enshrining the concept of privacy as a fundamental right in law also help your work?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Yes.

We recommended it in the case of Bill C‑27, and the parliamentary committee accepted that recommendation. However, it's important that this be done in both acts.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

For example, if we were to ban the TikTok application, would citizens' privacy be better protected, or would it really make no difference?

[Philippe Dufresne]

For our part, we verify whether the use of an application is consistent with the law. If it's not, we'd like to see it amended and fixed. In extreme cases, the solution may be to completely ban a use. In other cases, it might be enough to change the practice, increase protection, clarify consent. That's what we're looking at.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

Last December, ByteDance admitted that it had been spying on U.S. journalists to identify their sources. In response to that, TikTok said they'd been working on better structures.

Has that been done or requested in Canada?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I can't comment specifically on that.

For our part, we're investigating TikTok's privacy practices.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

We're talking about TikTok today, but my colleague from Châteauguay—Lacolle talked about other platforms.

Are all platforms equal in terms of privacy?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Every platform has its own practices. We check what's going on there, and we get complaints.

I announced today that my office had concerns about LinkedIn and the training of its artificial intelligence models. We contacted the company, and they responded well. They put in place a moratorium for the duration of our discussions. That's another example.

The solution isn't always a full investigation. Sometimes that can be done through education and exchange. We try to use all the tools we have.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

[Inaudible—Editor] the ability to easily get out of that function, as I recall.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes. Go ahead, sir.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's a great segue by my comrade from the Bloc Québécois.

Looking at the other comparators, have you in your time, Mr. Dufresne, been investigating other platforms such as X, Instagram, Twitter and the like?

Have you had a chance to review the privacy concerns around those companies as well?

[Philippe Dufresne]

We have a complaint with Meta, with Facebook and with this one. We had the announcement of our decision on Aylo and MindGeek. Those were the big ones that were concluded and made public.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In your estimation, do you see commonalities in the themes and the way in which privacy breaches are prevalent in what is otherwise a form of surveillance capitalism?