Information & Ethics Committee on Jan. 13th, 2022

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to reaffirm the point that no hands appeared either on Zoom—and I was watching the screen closely—or within the room to indicate that there were other people who wanted to speak. You quite clearly called the question. If the members of the Liberal Party want to challenge the chair on that, it's their right to do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

I'm going to go to Ms. Hepfner to see if she has an issue with being able to.... Can you try to raise your hand now to see if we have a technical problem?

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I will give it another try. Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I see your hand now.

I will ask Ms. Khalid if there's a further point of order and then I'll rule on this. Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

As I said, I had some amendments that I wanted to propose to tighten this up, so I look forward to your ruling.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Mr. Fergus, do you also have a point of order?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

I would like to move a simple amendment to Mr. Brassard's motion, and I hope it passes unanimously.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Mr. Fergus, you had the floor and an opportunity to do so earlier, and ordinarily, when the chair asks the question and the voting commences, there are no points of order at that point. The speaking list had been exhausted and I gave Ms. Saks an extra opportunity to get in on the debate with her having lowered her hand. I feel that I did ensure that each member had a chance to speak and that there were no more speakers.

We will proceed to the vote.

I was going to ask, by a show of hands, if members were in favour, but we can go to a recorded vote if that's the—

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I'd like a recorded vote, please.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Mr. Brassard has asked for a recorded vote, so we will have a recorded vote on—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hepfner's issue was that she was not able to raise her hand to speak to her points, and that was not addressed. All that was addressed here was the fact that she had a technical difficulty, but she wasn't allowed the opportunity to speak that was rightfully hers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

That's fair. If Ms. Hepfner had comments that she wished to make on this.... In fairness to members, with the technical obstacles that we have in a Zoom call, I will allow Ms. Hepfner some remarks if she would like to make them.

Having exhausted the speaking list and being in the process of commencing a vote, which ordinarily cannot be interrupted with points of order, I'll let Ms. Hepfner get her comments on the record, and then we'll have to go back to the vote. That is ordinarily what is required once debate has collapsed. Notwithstanding Ms. Hepfner, debate had collapsed.

Go ahead, Ms. Hepfner, with your comments.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thanks very much.

I would like to move an amendment, if I can at this time. I have some concerns with the motion as it was presented and I'll go forward with those right now.

First, I have concerns about the timing laid out in this motion. It's unreasonable that we would expect to have ministers from two different departments appear today. I would move to amend the first section to take out the word “immediately” from the motion.

Second, in section (b), I would suggest that we remove the Minister of Indigenous Services from the panel. I don't believe the Minister of Indigenous Services has the authority or the standing to be able to respond to concerns from the current health department. I would also further amend that statement to make it clear that we're only looking to hear from the current health minister.

In section (c), I would like to see an amendment after the words “5:00 p.m.” to change the word “today” to “Friday, January 14”.

Those are the three amendments I would suggest to move this motion forward.

I appreciate the privacy concerns. It is valid to look at how data is collected and to ensure that Canadians' personal cellphone data isn't being collected. This is mobility data that's being used in jurisdictions all over the world to help authorities deal with the pandemic. It's really valuable information about where people are moving, based on their postal codes.

That's what I wanted to add. Thanks very much for giving me the time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

If I understand correctly, you have now moved an amendment that.... Could you repeat precisely what you are amending? You want to amend the motion by deleting “the Minister of Indigenous Services” and changing “5:00 p.m. today” to “5:00 p.m. Friday”. Do I understand correctly?

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'll jump in.

The first amendment is in section (a). Following the word “statement”, I would remove the word “immediately”.

Second, I would remove “the Minister of Indigenous Services” and add the words “a statement” after the word “including”, and remove “from each” in front of “immediately following the appearance referred to in paragraph (a)”. That's just to make it clear.

The third amendment is that after the words “5:00 p.m.”, the word “today” would be changed to “Friday, January 14” so that it wouldn't be a particular time tomorrow.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

Madam Clerk, do you have all of that?

Ms. Hepfner, just to make absolutely certain that we're clear, you are deleting “the Minister of Indigenous Services” from the motion; deleting “immediately”; and changing the time for the recommendation for witnesses. Does that capture your amendments?

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Yes. Would you like me to send them to the clerk so that it's clear and everyone can have a copy?

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

If you have them ready to be sent electronically, that would be helpful. Thank you.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'll have my parliamentary assistant send that immediately. Thanks very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

All right.

Now, speakers, having permitted Ms. Hepfner and now having an amendment that we will now go to, I am going to make a general ruling so that we don't have this issue in the future.

To be clear, when the speakers list is exhausted—those in the room and those with hands up on Zoom—I will ask if there are any other speakers. I would suggest to anybody on Zoom that you not be shy about putting your hand up. If you would like to speak on debate, get your hand up. Otherwise, I have no way of knowing if there is any further debate, and then we would need to go straight to the question.

Right now I have Ms. Saks. For those on Zoom, I have Mr. Brassard who also wishes to speak, and I see other hands going up.

Go ahead, Ms. Saks, on the amendment.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Before I begin, I would like to thank you for hearing me and my colleagues out and making sure that we have a constructive and thorough discussion for good work coming forward. This will ensure that we create an opportunity to explore this issue in depth, with the attention it requires, and that all committee members' concerns and thoughts on it can be heard.

With regard to the time limitations, when requests under Standing Order 106(4) are submitted, there's usually a 48-hour notice period. I want to make sure that when we're talking about changing the wording from “immediately” and the reasoning behind it, we want to be respectful to all members of the committee and understand the urgency of the issue, but we also want to make sure that we are respectful of the witnesses and the time it takes them to prepare and move their schedules to be here so that we can have successful and constructive discussions and interventions by committee members.

Today's meeting was set up in less than 48 hours with the notices that were provided, and I want to thank all of the committee members who are here today and made the time, because we understand the urgency of the matter. Notwithstanding that, it's important that we respect procedure and people's time, including that of the witnesses we call, and not set a precedent of “immediate” and demand pulling....

Dr. Theresa Tam and the members at PHAC are doing extremely critical work right now as we navigate through this pandemic. It's the same for the Minister of Health and other senior officials. We want to be mindful that they are focused on the important work of the day while also answering the questions of Canadians. When we set the time in this committee to have those important discussions, it's important that we be respectful of the officials' time to make sure that they can appear and answer those questions.

I'm reticent to say “immediate”. We can ensure that debate happens and that we have a discussion with those witnesses, rather than just slapping down an immediate demand for them to be here and having them perhaps not being able to fulfill it. That means Canadians' questions aren't answered, and it becomes disrespectful both to the witnesses and to the integrity of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

Next I have Mr. Brassard.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The motion I put forward as the meeting started was circulated to the clerk yesterday. I made it very clear. It was actually over 24 hours. I also gave it to Ms. Khalid to give her the courtesy of a heads-up of what I was planning on doing in terms of asking Dr. Tam and the ministers to appear today.

Obviously everybody has access to Zoom. I am respectful of Ms. Tam's time, but they had more than 24 hours' notice to be ready in the event that this motion passed. The thought that somehow we're doing this without their knowledge.... Both of the ministers' offices and Ms. Tam's office would have been aware of the request in the event that the committee passed the motion.

That's the first thing; everybody has access to—

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Go ahead, Ms. Saks. What is your point of order?