Evidence of meeting #21 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was criminal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'm happy to pick up where my good friend René left off.
Mr. Dion, do you believe that mandatory training—annual, semi-annual training—for MPs would help improve clarity around the code of conduct?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I am absolutely convinced. We're talking about two hours a year, or something of that nature, on the most relevant issues—relevant, as in we see the prevalence of what the issues are.
Now we have the technology that makes it so you don't have to actually go anywhere. You can also watch after the fact. You can participate. It's easy. I have recommended in my report to PROC six recommendations, and one of them has to do with mandatory training.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It sure does.
Mr. Dion, you mentioned that the code of conduct, as it is, is functional.
Given that we're here with estimates, I'm wondering, in your contemplation of your budget, when you're doing policy background and briefings with your staff, are you looking around the world to see who has the most robust programs, looking for ways to continually improve upon the code and the adherence to the code?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. We have a couple of officers who devote a large portion of their time to keeping abreast of what goes on internationally. We also belong to a new network of parliamentary ethics officers in la Francophonie. The countries of la Francophonie formed a new network three years ago, and we're a very active participant in that as well.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
What I'm trying to bring to this committee is a higher standard of transparency and accountability.
I'll share with you my opinion, Mr. Dion. While it might be true that there is functional adherence to this, when we get caught around substantive scandals of Parliament, there seems to be a pattern of the code, in the conduct and the consequences being quite different from what the general public's expectation is in terms of the standard to which we operate with professionalism in the House. I think that leads to the level of cynicism and this idea around having political impunity around a lot of issues.
When you're looking around the world for comparative examples of policy improvements, which countries would you point to that would have the most robust, transparent, highest gold standards of codes of conduct, and what do some of those consequences look like?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
A few come to mind, but Britain has recently looked at the reform of the rules governing the conduct of MPs. Very recently—last year—I was called as a witness to explain the Canadian regime to Lord.... I forget his name, but he was in charge of the review.
France has also created recently a new authority.
It's called the Haute Autorité pour la transparence de la vie publique.
There, the rules are quite harsh, basically. Their consequences are quite harsh when somebody violates the rules, both on the MP side and on the side of senior officials as well.
I have heard as well that there are some regimes in Scandinavia that are interesting—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
There's always the story about the Icelandic people who put people in jail when their government collapsed. There seemed to be some real consequences.
Given these examples and the recommendations you provided and the budget that's before us in terms of the estimates, if you had a magic wand or a blank cheque and the ability to have global leading standards in ethics, in adherence to ethics and to the code of conduct, in lobbying, and so on and so forth, what recommendations would you make to this committee to contemplate in terms of strengthening our legislation here?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's up to the House to determine what it wants in terms of rules. The House could make a decision through the committee, for instance—your committee—to do a review of the code of conduct. PROC is doing one. I don't know what will come out of the review by PROC, but it's up to the House of Commons. It's also up to the government—
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Let me ask you this. I'm an MP. I'm in the House of Commons, I'm in the ethics committee and I'm asking you for a specificity. What recommendations would you provide to create the gold standard of a code of conduct to ensure that the gap between the perception of a conflict of interest and the actual legislation is bridged in such a way that the general public doesn't continue to have this viewpoint that we have impunity as a class?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's obviously something that I would not try to answer on the fly like this. It's very serious—
NDP
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I would be happy to study the issue and come back within a few months with some suggestions, yes.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you, Mr. Green.
With that, we go to five-minute rounds.
Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Dion, in the estimates, you have $5.6 million budgeted for “Administration and Interpretation of the Conflict of Interest Act and the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons”. Knowing that you need to be looking at other pieces of federal legislation such as the Criminal Code under section 49 of the Conflict of Interest Act, do you have on staff anyone who has a particular lens on violations that are happening under other pieces of legislation when you are undertaking your investigations?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We have three excellent lawyers who have given me advice from time to time on the Criminal Code and who, if required, would consult some experts as well in criminal law matters. I do have the professional resources that are required to keep in mind continuously the Criminal Code aspects of what we do.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
How would you explain paragraph 65 from the RCMP criminal brief on the investigation of fraud against the government by Prime Minister Trudeau when they say:
While the RCMP are not bound by Commissioner Dawson's interpretation that Mr. Trudeau's actions were not criminal in nature, given Commissioner Dawson's legal background—and her long tenure as Ethics Commissioner—her opinion should be given some deference.
When she was interviewed by The Globe and Mail, she said, “Nothing alerted me at the time to the fact that there would be a potential criminal charge,” and “I wasn't aware of a specific provision in the criminal law that would apply to that.”
Is that a failure of the Office of the Ethics Commissioner for not giving a red flag that there was a potential fraud under the Criminal Code in paragraph 121(1)(c)?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Mr. Chair, I believe I've already answered this question, referring to the benefit of hindsight. Of course, I do not have a view, and if I had one, I would not share it, as to whether this is a failure or not a failure.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
You mentioned that there have been a couple of occasions since you've been commissioner that you've had to refer different investigations over to authorities. Would that be over to the RCMP or to a different agency?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It always goes over to the RCMP. There is a directive that makes it mandatory to go through the RCMP, so it's always through the RCMP. I've done it on one occasion. It was on the Grewal matter, which you might recall from three or four years ago. The charges are still pending before the courts.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Will you follow up on the other case that you referred to? If the RCMP determines that there's no criminal charge, would you reinstate your investigation as to a violation under the code?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I would reassess whether I should terminate the suspension and resume the investigation, or if the matter has become moot, depending on the facts of the case.
There was a case a few years ago involving Mr. Carson, who was a special adviser, I think, to the government back in the first part of the 2000s. It was suspended and we decided not to reactivate it, considering the facts of the case. We published a report to inform the House of our decision not to reopen the investigation.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Do you believe that anyone, including public office holders, is above the law?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, I don't. Not at all. I believe everybody is.... The rule of law is one of the cardinal foundations of our democracy.