Evidence of meeting #21 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was criminal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
That's very good to hear. Thank you, sir.
Can you describe the process of how you launch an investigation? I think there are different ways they can be started. Can you go over the process and how those decisions are made?
4:45 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We have a very good description on our website, which I would recommend. Anybody who has an interest should have a look at it, but it's grosso modo, essentially.
It can come from two sources. A member of Parliament makes a complaint, under the code, concerning the conduct of the colleague member of Parliament, or a member of Parliament or senator makes a complaint under the Conflict of Interest Act in relation to the conduct of the public office holder. That's the first source: A parliamentarian makes a complaint.
The second source is the commissioner being aware of something on his own volition, because the commissioner saw something on Twitter, in The Globe and Mail or elsewhere. We do some proactive monitoring of the web to see whether there's anything of interest in relation to MPs and public office holders. That's the second way.
In either of these two situations, the commissioner can only launch an investigation if he has grounds to believe that a contravention has occurred. It's not a fishing expedition or a witch hunt. There must be grounds akin to those required for the police to conduct certain types of powers they have under the code and so on.
If I have grounds to believe, we notify the person against whom the allegation is made and ask them to provide us with all the relevant material, evidence, and so on and so forth. We invariably have an interview with the alleged perpetrator—let's refer to him or her that way. We also interview other relevant witnesses. Usually, in an investigation, we have more than one witness. We have several witnesses. We try to conduct our investigations within a maximum period of one year, barring a very exceptional situation, and we table a report.
That's how it goes. I hope this answers the question.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Lisa Hepfner Liberal Hamilton Mountain, ON
Thank you very much.
I'm wondering how many investigations you have ongoing right now and whether you have concerns about vexatious or malicious claims, given that sometimes the sources are opposition members in Parliament.
Is there a consideration of that? Do you take that into consideration when a question is launched?
4:45 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, I do, because I'm required to determine whether it's vexatious or frivolous both under the code and the act. This is a step in the process.
It hasn't been a problem. Last year, as you will see in our annual report, we had 58 situations that we had to analyze. There wasn't a single one that I would call vexatious or frivolous.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Yes. Thank you.
With that, we now go to Mr. Villemure for six minutes.
May 12th, 2022 / 4:45 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Dion, thank you for being with us today.
First off, I'd like to thank you for the clarity of your answers. I have followed your career for years and really appreciate your work.
4:45 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Thank you.
4:45 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
You indicated your team was not short-staffed. In other words, there's no labour shortage in your office.
In general, what kind of educational background do you seek, when hiring?
4:45 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
About three-quarters of our employees were there when I arrived. Since I've taken office very few have left, only 14 out of 50.
I have never really looked into the educational background of our employees. Many have university degrees, in law, administration, communications, journalism and political science. The advisors and lawyers who work in my office have law degrees, of course. It varies a great deal. Most have a university education, but not everyone has the same training. Aside from some advisors who have knowledge of this particular area, there is no specialized ethics training per se.
4:45 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The head of our team of advisors has specific training. I'm giving you an off-the-cuff answer as I don't have my office staff's educational profiles with me.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay, thank you.
Let's talk about continuing education. Your turnover is low, which is a very good thing. What type of training do your staff do to ensure service quality?
4:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We keep a close eye on training provided by the Canada School of Public Service. Even though we're an independent organization, we still benefit from the training provided by the school. Some programs apply to us.
Also, people have and are still being granted study leave to complete a graduate degree, at Université de Montréal or elsewhere.
There is the Council on Governmental Ethics Laws (COGEL), with which you may be familiar, Mr. Villemure. It's a mostly North American association of people who work in parliamentary ethics. A representative of the organizational committee will be attending the COGEL conference this year. A lot of staff are attending the conference, now virtually. The conferences feature excellent study groups that look at all sorts of topical issues.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Would you say that your staff's training and activities are more focused on compliance and compliance assurance?
4:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. I have noticed that.
First of all, there are the compliance mechanisms in the conflict of interest code for members and the Conflict of Interest Act. That's probably what you meant by compliance.
4:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Then there are the substantive issues, which have to do with whether or not there's a conflict of interest.
A great deal of emphasis is placed on the mechanics and that creates a significant workload. When we're consulted on substantive issues, I'm often personally called upon to address them. Whenever someone considered important is involved, I have to look at the job profile. You will learn that we're consulted hundreds of times a year on substantive issues.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
We often hear about the mechanical aspect of compliance. You're well known for that.
Can you tell us about the type of substantive issues you focus on?
4:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The question of recusal comes to mind. We're consulted on whether or not someone should recuse themselves and we provide advice in that area. Section 21 of the act requires recusal in certain situations and the code has similar provisions. It's an important issue.
Furthermore, quite often we're presented with conflict of interest issues relating to spouses. For example, these issues may involve the duties of a minister and the professional or business activities of their spouse. That is why we create filters. Section 29 of the act is intended to prevent situations where it appears the likelihood of conflict of interest is quite high. That's a second example.
Filters are a preventive measure to avoid recusal. The duty to recuse oneself still exists, but the goal is to not get the opportunity to recuse oneself because one is not confronted with the issue.
Most of the provisions aren't very easily enforceable. Of course, we know why people come to us. We read the newspapers and we hear what's going on in the House of Commons. We follow what's going on in the House of Comments very closely, as well as at committee meetings and on the web in general. That's what we do. As I told you, generally, I come into the process when someone in an important position is involved.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
Beyond compliance, beyond literal enforcement of the code, I guess you have to have an ethical view of the culture, of our positions.
Do you also work upstream with respect to culture? Or do you only work downstream instead when you are consulted?
4:50 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Personally, I don't feel members spend enough time on education, on the training that we try to provide.
I was again very disappointed with the turnout at two events recently hosted by the Library of Parliament. I don't know why the turnout is so low. I assume, of course, that MPs are busy people, but I believe that if they spent a few hours a year on prevention, on gaining a better understanding of rules that are often complex for people who don't know them, it would be time well spent. Right now, the attendance rate is dismal.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Do you think it would be a good idea to make ethics training mandatory?
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
I'm sorry, but your time is up, Monsieur Villemure. We were actually a bit over there.
We will have to move on to Mr. Green.