Evidence of meeting #23 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
With that, we will go to Mr. Bezan for up to five minutes.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the commissioner for joining us today. It's great to have you here in person. I appreciate the work you do.
Now, you referred to how many cases in your tenure to the RCMP for investigation, and what were the circumstances that would require an RCMP investigation?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm sorry. I didn't hear the first part of your question.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
You said in your opening comments that you referred—
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It was one this year.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
—at least one this year, but how many in total?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I have referred 11 in four and a half years.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
How many of those resulted in charges against those individuals?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
So far, none.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
What was the determination that you wanted the RCMP to take a look at them?
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'm sorry. What was...?
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Was it violations of the Criminal Code or was it—
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
No. Failing to register, or lobbying when you're prohibited, is an offence under the Lobbying Act. When I investigate, the moment I have reasonable grounds to believe that there was lobbying that was unregistered, or that someone lobbied when they were prohibited, I must suspend and refer to the RCMP.
4:10 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
But if the RCMP doesn't follow up, then they're getting away.
4:10 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The RCMP takes it over. They decide whether or not to investigate and to pursue and to lay charges.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
So you're saying no charges have ever been laid—
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
They have returned two to me. They now have nine files.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
So the two they returned they were not going to move forward on.
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
One of them continues to be suspended. One of them I decided to close, because one of my recommendations is a spectrum of sanctions. Not all offences are created equal, and I have no discretion. The moment I think the communication they had was in fact lobbying and they should have been registered, I have no discretion. I have to send it.
The file that was returned I simply closed, because it was someone who obviously did not know that they were lobbying. It was one incident. There was no reason to do a report to Parliament on that issue. If I thought that it came back and that I should file a report to Parliament, that's one option that I could do. That's the state of—
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Knowing that you have the responsibility to report to other agencies like the RCMP, when you come across an individual lobbyist who is offering gifts, for example, to parliamentarians or public office holders, do you also then notify the Ethics Commissioner?
4:15 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
When it's an investigation under the code of conduct, I report to Parliament. It's two things.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
I'm saying that if you have a case where a lobbyist offers a gift that's over the threshold to a public office holder, that being a parliamentarian, would you then also notify the Ethics Commissioner that you're investigating somebody for giving a gift to a parliamentarian that they—