Information & Ethics Committee on May 19th, 2022

[Nancy Bélanger]

No. Again, we don't really have the resources. One thing we're doing is asking people after our presentations how we did and how we can improve and what kinds of tools they would need to better understand the regime. I consider that to be somewhat of an experiment, but it's minimal. We just have enough people to keep the core of our mandate going, so we are very slim, but we're working on it.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you for your work.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Mr. Villemure, go ahead.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Commissioner, I only have two and a half minutes. I will ask you two questions, and if you have any additional information, you can send it to us in writing.

Gifts have always been the subject of endless discussion. How do you distinguish between hospitality, a bribe or an attempt at bribery?

I'd like you to answer in 30 seconds.

[Nancy Bélanger]

According to the rule as it is written, receiving a gift is not allowed, unless the public office holder can accept it, and it's up to me to do that verification.

In the new code, there will be two categories: gifts and hospitality. The only gifts allowed will be to show appreciation or to thank a public office holder for performing an official function. For hospitality, I have set a limit of $30. That is all that will be allowed. I hope that by setting such a small amount, a public office holder will not be influenced in any way.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

We can't believe that a $30 gift could influence anyone.

What is strange is that the Government of Canada itself gives lavish gifts worth much more than $30.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Were they given to influence a public office holder?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

No.

[Nancy Bélanger]

That's it.

I only regulate lobbyists. The purpose of lobbyists' communications with public office holders is precisely to express their views. The word "influence" is used, but I'm always afraid it has a negative connotation. Lobbyists give their views, which is good for policy-making, but there is a limit.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It's a self-serving view, though.

I'll move on to another question.

You talked about exemptions for former public office holders. You made a few enquiries, two of which were not followed up.

Tell me a little bit about David MacNaughton from Palantir Canada. What made it not work for him?

[Nancy Bélanger]

The Lobbying Act says that when you leave politics, you can't lobby as a consultant or as a consultant lobbyist. You can't lobby for an organization. However, if you work for a company, you can have lobbying activities that represent up to 20% of your duties.

This should be eliminated, and this is one of my recommendations. It should be equal on both sides. You can decide to leave an exemption in place, which is a matter of policy, but I don't understand this 20% limit. I might have understood it more in the case of lobbying for charities.

Some of Mr. MacNaughton's communications were not on reportable matters, but some were. I think that these communications did not even add up to two hours. They represented nowhere near 20% of his duties, so they were allowed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm sorry to interrupt you. Mr. Villemure's time is up.

It's Mr. Desjarlais for up to two and a half minutes, and maybe a little extra, given what's happened.

Go ahead.

[Blake Desjarlais]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks again to our witness for sharing her plans with us here. One of the plans I want to address is your annual report and some of the work that was in there.

I know, given the pandemic, that workers and employees in the public service have taken on an extraordinary amount of work, having to adjust their lives, having to change everything, find child care, do everything from home and be a teacher at the same time. I'm sure that your employees are very much the same.

What I also found quite disturbing, especially on behalf of labour, was that there was a survey conducted during this report, and we found that employee job satisfaction fell dramatically, from 88% in 2019 to just 65% in 2020. You identified telework as being the primary reason there was such a shortfall in the training and why it could have led to some of your employees feeling unsatisfied. How are you going to enhance training for employees, and how are you going to find a way to enhance satisfaction in terms of your employees feeling supported?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I will never repeat it enough: I have the best team in Ottawa.

Well, first of all, we did do a lot of training in the last year to address that, so that particular annual report is from the previous year. What we have done this year is that we have created.... Each group, so the investigation team and the communications, has a community of practice where they are working with other agents of Parliament, and they really create a network.

We have done a lot of training for our investigators. We have allowed people in this virtual world to attend many international conferences and COGEL, and come to sessions where I meet with my network. We have also done mandatory training for diversity, inclusivity and mental health. I have an awesome champion of mental health. Interestingly, some of these sessions are not mandatory, and my employees are all there. I think that when we do another survey, we will have gone up again. We reduced, but that's two employees. I have 25 people, so it's, you know....

I am a great believer in an exceptional workplace, and I will do everything in my power to support people in their professional development. We ask them what they want to do and where they want to go, because I know that in a team of 25, I can't offer promotions to everybody. Sometimes we've moved people around when they're starting to feel like they want to learn something new. We do that. Luckily, people don't really leave. When they do, it's really because there's a promotion, but people enjoy working in our office, so it's good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you. With that, we again went quite a bit over time.

We're going now to Mr. Williams.

Go ahead for up to five minutes.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, Ms. Bélanger.

I'm going to start with the 11 preliminary recommendations you gave to the House for updating the Lobbying Act. It has been a year since you compiled those recommendations. Would you change any of them, or do you have any new ones?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I don't know that I would change any of them, but I will have new ones.

One that I am seriously considering, and British Columbia has done this.... When in-house lobbyists lobby about contracting—not about the process of obtaining a contract, but sometimes there are conversations occurring on the side—right now that is not a registrable activity under the Lobbying Act. It is if you're a consultant, but it's not if you're in house. That's one aspect.

Another one that I think we seriously need to consider is volunteers. Of course, that's a touchy one. We're not talking about constituents who are talking to you about an issue that they're passionate about. Yukon has adopted a new rule, and I reference it in my.... It's a different document than the one I'm working on, but the Yukon has a “directing mind”, so even if someone is not paid but they're on a board of directors or they're someone who has clout, importance or decision-making powers, maybe that person should also be included in the requirements to lobby. Sometimes people will make phone calls and say, “Oh, I wasn't lobbying because I don't get paid,” but their phone call was important. I think there are some transparency gaps in that area.

Those are two, but the ones that are there I don't think I would actually change.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you.

We have a lot more, obviously. I'm here on Zoom tonight, unfortunately. I'm sorry that I couldn't be there in person.

Did we see an increase in the last two years, during the pandemic, of lobbying through virtual meetings?

[Nancy Bélanger]

Yes, absolutely.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Okay. Are the Lobbying Act and the lobbying registry properly set up to accommodate this shift in meeting locales? If not, how do we need to update that?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I'm sorry. If the Lobbying Act is equipped to...?

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Is the lobbying registry properly set up to accommodate this shift in meeting virtually? Is there anything we need to change there, or is it set up already?

[Nancy Bélanger]

No, I don't think the registry needs to change. Right now, any oral and arranged meeting in advance needs to be reported, so the virtual meetings meet that definition and they just need to report it. I don't think there need to be changes to the registry.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Okay.

I think you talked a little bit about this, and I apologize if I'm asking about it again, but the United States, Australia and soon the U.K. will have laws around the registration of foreign lobbyists and foreign influence agents. Is the influence of foreign lobbyists something your office is concerned about?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I don't know that my office has concerns about it, because right now if a consultant or an in-house organization meets the threshold, they need to register. Again, we can have a conversation about the threshold.

I am aware of a bill that was tabled in the other place. I have started to look at it because I think there's some reference in that particular bill that copies parts of our registration, but not all of it. I'm going to have to study that in particular.

I think right now, if the requirements are met, foreign entities do have an obligation to register under the Lobbying Act. The problem is, if there is an allegation of non-registrable, can I enforce it? That's another question.