Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 8th, 2022

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, through you, Mr. Chair.

Following the vein of not knowing what we know don't know, certainly when we're looking at this kind of technology and what we've just learned, this was started in 2018. Knowing how technology evolves, we probably have a lot more technology that could be used that we have no knowledge of.

I want to go into some of the recommendations that you may or may not make from your end for our report on this issue that we're studying right now. I know that you're going to submit some of these in writing. Specifically knowing what this specific software can do perhaps from your research, is there anything new you would recommend for the Privacy Act that we didn't have before on facial recognition technology or on mobile data?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I will wait to get the briefing on those specific tools to see all of the capabilities they have, but I think that we need to make sure that the legislation, when it's amended, is done in a way that it can keep up with technology. We can't amend legislation as quickly as technology evolves, so how do we make sure that the legislation is flexible enough to keep up with this technology that's going to be evolving? I think the questions remain the same, namely focusing on the impact, on the privacy intrusive nature of these tools and comparing that to the goals and making sure that it goes no further than what is required by the goal.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Based on some of my research, there are a tremendous number of loopholes that technology exploits to be able to use that. One of those is that, if satellites cross earth's orbit and information is contained in that satellite, there are ways it can be stored in other countries. Canada can get that through other ways, but we have specific loopholes that we just haven't caught up with, and we're finding that out here. Is that something else your office is investigating and looking into when it comes to being as modern as possible when we redo these privacy laws?

[Philippe Dufresne]

We're working very closely with our international counterparts and seeing how we can work together, put forward similar principles and deal with these issues that, in many regards, know no borders. That's part of what we do in our international outreach and sharing of information.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

In terms of the public versus private sectors, I know this has come up before. There are sometimes different rules for the private and public sectors.

You've also talked about working with the provinces. Specifically when it comes to privately and publicly working with the provinces, are we developing best practices in order to look at this technology as a whole federally and provincially?

[Philippe Dufresne]

We have great working collaborations with the provincial counterparts. This is my first month, but I was told that there are monthly calls and regular discussions and exchanges. We do keep a close relationship to work with each other and to make sure that our respective legislation evolves in the right way. We learn from best practices in one area. My goal as the federal Privacy Commissioner is making sure I can give the best advice and recommendation to Parliament so that the federal legislation is as good as it can be.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Similarly, looking across the world at our European partners, is your office in contact with them, too, looking at what their privacy laws look like privately and publicly?

[Philippe Dufresne]

Absolutely. We have very close collaboration. I have already had exchanges with my counterparts since the start of my term on June 27. We're looking at the GDPR. We're looking at developments in the U.S. and developments in the U.K. We're facing similar challenges, and there are different approaches that are adopted. My office's goal is to look at what will work best for Canadians and to provide recommendations to Parliament via this committee.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

To echo my counterpart, does your office at this point need any more resources to find more of that collaboration?

[Philippe Dufresne]

At this point my office does need more resources. We've made a request for more resources already and we're awaiting the response on that. We are evaluating what we will need for Bill C-27 and beyond.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much.

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

All right. With that, we'll go to Ms. Khalid, who will be last in this third round.

Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I know we've been talking a lot about the need for transparency to build trust in public institutions, but on the flip side of that, do you think, for example, that somebody watching this committee hearing is going to come away with the takeaway that the RCMP is doing mass surveillance on them? Are we finding the right balance and holding institutions to account? Is there a responsibility on us to also reassure the public that mass surveillance is not happening, if that's the case? What's your role in that regard?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I think that's an important point. When I talk about privacy as an accelerator of the trust Canadians have in their institutions, I mean that. It's important that Canadians are reassured about the processes that exist and about their institutions and what their institutions are doing.

In this case, I think Canadians will see that the RCMP is providing responses to Parliament, will be appearing and will be sharing information and answering questions by this committee. They will be playing a fundamental role in obtaining information and providing advice to the House in its report. I think this is a strong functioning system.

What I am advocating for is to see even more of that in the context of privacy impact assessments at the front end. I think that would even further generate some of this trust and would perhaps allay concerns that may arise—perhaps needlessly—when something becomes public in the media and creates some doubts. At the end of the day, they may be unwarranted, whereas if this had been looked at earlier on, perhaps there would have been a way of allaying doubts even earlier.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

To continue with that, I know some of my colleagues across the way said the RCMP is conducting mass surveillance on the population and on MPs. Do you have any comments on that? Is there any evidence of that?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I know that my officials have good working relations with the RCMP, and I look forward to having the same with Commissioner Lucki and the institution. What I am saying is there's a good opportunity to conduct a PIA to provide information. We're available to work with the RCMP to provide advice on these tools.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thanks for that.

Do you have any concerns about the public disclosure of policing techniques and technologies? How do we balance the public's right to know with the risk of criminal organizations getting ahead of our investigative tools?

[Philippe Dufresne]

This goes to when I talk about privacy not being an obstacle to the public interest but building on each other. That's very important.

There may well be information that cannot and should not be made public. If we're talking about criminal investigative techniques, there's probably a good potential that that would apply in this instance. Doing a PIA internally, consulting my office confidentially and putting in place necessary safeguards would not go against that. We'd look at it on a case-by-case basis, but not everything can be made public. That's something that would be looked at on the facts of a case.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Based on that, do I understand you correctly that you're seeking to find a balance between privacy rights and working competently to protect the safety and security of Canadians through the PIA system? In other words, are you arguing that legislated PIAs will help governments, agencies and individuals find a balance between privacy and security?

[Philippe Dufresne]

I think that's a very good way of formulating it. I would agree with that. Privacy is a fundamental right. It needs to support the public interest. One of the ways of doing that, while generating trust, is to have PIAs at the front end and a good process for reviewing them.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Last, I'll just ask if there's anything that you'd like to add to what you've been asked today as words of advice for our committee or a recommendation that you want to put forward before us.

[Philippe Dufresne]

I think that there have been lots of good questions and exchanges, and I don't have anything to add top of mind, but we will be following up with the committee with the specific wording of our recommendation for the legislation.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Commissioner.

Thank you, Chair. Those are all my questions.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Excuse me, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Green.