Evidence of meeting #32 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Daniel Therrien  Lawyer, As an Individual
Sharon Polsky  President, Privacy and Access Council of Canada

11:55 a.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I don't know. I heard Minister Mendicino say that this would be an operational issue as opposed to a policy or legislative issue. It may be that the RCMP decided to deploy the tool as an operational matter without informing or seeking authorization from the minister of the day. I don't know.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you.

As the previous Privacy Commissioner of Canada, did the RCMP ever consult you before deploying this technology at the request of ministers like Minister Toews or Minister Blaney? Did either minister request or approve of a PIA, a privacy impact assessment? Did you ever receive such a PIA during that time?

11:55 a.m.

Lawyer, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I did not know, the OPC did not know, that the police were using this tool, so no, we were never consulted on this in the past.

11:55 a.m.

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Do you know if the RCMP has used any of the software developed by the Awz group, which former prime minister Stephen Harper is deeply involved with, such as Corsight, their facial recognition software, or viisights, their behavioural recognition software?

Noon

Lawyer, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I have no knowledge about this.

Noon

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

We are wandering into fresh territory here for conspiracy theorists at home to listen to this and come away with the idea that the RCMP is doing mass surveillance. Do you think that's true? Is the RCMP conducting mass surveillance on Canadians?

Noon

Lawyer, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I don't think so. They said they use ODITs only with judicial authorization. I accept that. With regard to the course of our investigation on facial recognition, are they using mass surveillance? Probably not, but they are certainly using intrusive tools without necessarily clear legal safeguards and independent oversight.

Mass surveillance can take a number of forms, apparently not through ODITs—probably not at all, but I don't know.

Noon

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

We've had conversations from other members speculating on the role of preambles and making them into legislation. How important is it, do you think, to preserve the discretion of RCMP officers as they're conducting the work of security and protection of Canadians? Where's that balance of ensuring that privacy is protected with that oversight, which is very important?

Do you believe that creating rigid rules and regulations around that privacy, which, in these 32 cases that we're talking about, only intruded in the privacy of those who were being investigated for some very, very serious offences like terrorism, like murder, like trafficking...? Do you think that discretion should be allowed to the courts, to RCMP officers, in the role that they play? Where is that balance?

Noon

Lawyer, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

You started your question with a reference to preambles and then moved on to whether there should be prescriptive rules. My answer is that of course government officials, including the police, ultimately have a role to play under the law. The law should not be overly prescriptive, but at the same time, I think it is your role as parliamentarians to provide good guidance—maybe not overly prescriptive guidance, but good and substantive guidance—to government officials on how to exercise their responsibilities.

To have in the preamble to the Privacy Act the idea that privacy is a fundamental right I do not think is prescriptive, and I think would be good, sound general guidance to give to the RCMP.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Thank you.

Noon

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Chair, if I may, I'm just wondering if it would be possible to have Monsieur Therrien stay a little bit longer for the second hour as well. I know that my colleagues have questions as well.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Well, I had planned to split this into two panels with the two individuals, but I don't....

I think it would be up to Mr. Therrien if he wishes to remain.

Noon

Lawyer, As an Individual

Daniel Therrien

I'm happy to stay.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

This wasn't how I had planned to do it, but okay.

Noon

Liberal

Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON

Thank you very, very much. I appreciate that.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

I have a point of order from Mr. Green.

Noon

NDP

Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

It's just to make sure that we're clear that the extension of Mr. Therrien still allows for resetting the clock on the rotation. We're not melding these together. We get two separate sessions.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Yes. I had planned to ensure that these two separate witnesses from our motion would each constitute their own panel for that purpose. Mr. Therrien is welcome to stay, and members may ask him questions, but I understand that Ms. Polsky is already on and is audio tested. We'll go straight into it without....

Monsieur Villemure has a point of order.

Noon

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

Mr. Chair, I just want to ensure that we hear enough from Ms. Polsky because I'm afraid the party opposite is trying to avoid hearing her. I'd like to make sure we can ask her all the questions we want. I love listening to Mr. Therrien, but all the same…

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

All members will be able to ask whomever they wish.

Noon

Bloc

René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC

That's fine.

Noon

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

As I said, we will reset the rounds.

With that, I'd like to begin, because I'd like to end this as close to one o'clock as we can to then deal with a couple of items that need to be disposed of.

I welcome Ms. Polsky to our committee and invite her to begin with opening remarks of up to five minutes.

12:05 p.m.

Sharon Polsky President, Privacy and Access Council of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning from here in Calgary.

To you and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today.

In 1964, Ronald Reagan said, “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.”

In 1992, our Supreme Court said, “The very efficacy of electronic surveillance is such that it has the potential, if left unregulated, to annihilate any expectation that our communications will remain private.” The Supreme Court also said that we have a right to know when the state intrudes on our privacy.

The need for this study tells us that the court has been ignored.

As we saw with Clearview AI, police sometimes sampled data-oriented policing tools with no procurement paper trail, tools they say are needed for public safety to guard against perceived threats or, as Bill C-27 allows, to provide for societal benefits. Put another way, technology itself is morally neutral. How its use is justified makes all the difference, which is why it is so very important that this study is not hidden behind closed doors shielded from full public view.

We know that the Stasi secretly spied on its citizenry, but we don't expect democratic governments to spy on theirs, yet it's now happening in Canada and around the world with journalists, executives, social activists and elected representatives whose views differ from the ruling party being spied on.

Until recently, though, Dudley Do-Right and Sergeant Preston were what people thought of when they thought of the RCMP, defenders of justice and fair play in their relentless pursuit of lawbreakers, respecting the intent in the letter of the law, the charter and Canadian's privacy, not using an unreported surveillance program to spy on Canadians' social media accounts.

Granted, spyware can help police do their work. More often, though, it's downloaded by the hundreds of thousands and used by human traffickers to control sex slaves and, in domestic conflicts, to terrorize partners.

It's also part of a lucrative new sector that's made our privacy, our freedom and our democracy only a crisis or an election away from extinction. How can any MP or bureaucrat be certain that cabinet confidences, military strategies, election plans or anything can be discussed privately when there's a very real chance that a hidden app is letting someone somewhere in the world listen, watch and record your every text, email and photo, siphon your contacts and your passwords and silently turn on the microphone and camera to watch and listen to you and your surroundings undetected?

As for the question of whether there are any social benefits in spyware, the answer is a perverse but resounding yes. It's the Ford Pinto of technology, a danger hidden to the public in general and to certain people in particular with lots of socially beneficial spinoff jobs, commerce and taxes.

The global cybercrime industry generates more than $1.5 trillion U.S. annually. The global cybersecurity industry is at $1.7 trillion and in Canada, it accounts for $3.5 billion U.S. right now.

Pegasus is just the latest spyware to make the headlines. It reminds us that spyware is a non-partisan, equal opportunity endeavour and that the post-911 tools to combat terrorism have made us all fair game to be targeted and our words used against us. Maybe they already have been.

Disrupting the mercenary surveillance industry will require multi-partisan political will, a coordinated domestic and international effort and a shift in approach to prevent the damage from being done in the first place by regulating the exploitation of privacy. Put the onus where it belongs.

Spyware developers, producers, distributors, investors and the inherently faulty technology make the risk greater than the reward, because regulating Internet content won't stop spyware or child predators, and laws banning hacking-for-hire companies and occasionally catching a criminal haven't made a dent.

Using spyware needs to be made unlawful except in specific exceptional situations and for the shortest possible duration necessary to accomplish a specific investigatory goal with its use approved in advance by a genuinely independent, knowledgeable, apolitical third party so that Canadians can regain trust in government and the public sector and have reason to think of Mounties as Dudley Do-Right, not Snidely Whiplash.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly

Thank you for your opening statement.

We go now to Mr. Bezan for up to six minutes.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank Ms. Polsky for joining us today.

How shocked were you, as the president of the Privacy and Access Council of Canada, to learn yesterday under testimony that the RCMP have been deploying on-device investigative tools since before 2012?