Evidence of meeting #33 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
Again, I have not audited all of the agencies, so I'm not able to verify and certify that everything was done with a warrant. If I take an organization like CSIS, no investigation is done without due process of verification. Depending on what level of investigation is done, it might necessitate a warrant coming from a superior court.
Conservative
Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB
Regarding approval for a warrant coming from a superior court, is it one judge who's making a lot of the same decisions to grant that warrant? Have you seen different judges?
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
I've seen several judges in my experience. It's not always the same judge, but certain judges have been selected due to the national security and secrecy level.
Conservative
Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB
Okay, thank you.
Mr. Deibert, after watching yesterday's committee, you've seen what witnesses were saying. One issue that everyone is talking about right now is trust and how much it's been broken. You've brought it up, and many other people are talking about it.
After watching what the Minister of Public Safety said, how do you think Canadians can even trust some of our institutions today?
Professor of Political Science, and Director, Citizen Lab, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
We definitely have a problem of trust with public institutions, and we're not alone in that respect. Globally speaking, there's a decline around trust in public institutions, so we're not alone.
If we want to set a good example for the rest of the world and strive to be the best we can be, I think it's pretty simple that we can do better than what we have seen in this latest case which, as I've said before, follows a pattern of prior cases. First of all, we need to have a very clear public consultation in line with the magnitude of the technology we're talking about here, which represents a quantum leap forward in capabilities of surveillance.
Without that public consultation and trying to approach this subject in the ways that they have in the past, keeping it from the public and not disclosing things that could easily be disclosed, I think we're setting a bad example.
Conservative
Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB
I agree with you on that.
Mr. Juneau, you said that politicians on all levels have been monitored. We don't need to name names, but can you give us a number of how many, in your experience, have been monitored?
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
No, I cannot give a definite number considering the fact that in the concept of national security—
Conservative
Jasraj Singh Hallan Conservative Calgary Forest Lawn, AB
Is it in the tens, the twenties or the hundreds? Can you give us something like that?
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
Again, it's difficult for me to mention the numbers because we work on a need-to-know basis. For example, if I have colleagues working on the Russia desk, they will not know if I'm working on the China desk and some of the targets I have.
What we know for sure is that we have various foreign countries that have succeeded in recruiting elected officials—municipal, provincial, or federal—and were capable of influence in this way.
We also see at the end of their mandate, cabinet ministers going to work for foreign companies that work directly against the national security and the national interests of Canada. There's a certain concern when some people leave public office, given what they have done during public office and what they do after holding public office.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
You are well over time, but that was quite an extraordinary answer.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
With that, I'm going to go to Ms. Khalid. Ms. Khalid will be last in the second round. Then we'll go to the next.
Go ahead, Ms. Khalid.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Professor Deibert, one of my staff actually attended a number of your lectures as a professor at U of T, and he had some really good things to say about your role and expertise in this area. I really appreciate your being here today. Thank you very much. It's a personal connection.
I know members have been asking questions that you don't really have the purview to answer because you don't have the direct information. A lot of what we're discussing in this panel is, really, hypotheticals and what-ifs, with more of a policy perspective as opposed to a “what happened” or evidence-based perspective.
I'll start with Professor Deibert, if that's okay, and ask a question about disinformation.
We talk about the institutions that govern us and public trust. How does the concept that the RCMP and police institutions are monitoring and surveilling Canadians...? What kind of impact does that have? To date, we've heard from the RCMP and heard from the Privacy Commissioner with respect to exactly how many investigations have been conducted that have used ODIT surveillance. How does that impact public perception of the RCMP and our governing institutions in general, as we've seen the climate of disinformation and conspiracy theories being peddled in recent events? Professor Deibert, do you have any comments on that?
Professor of Political Science, and Director, Citizen Lab, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Well, if I understand your question correctly, you're implying that there is disinformation about some of the concerns that are being raised with respect to the risks and threats of this particular industry, which our agencies are actually contributing to financially. I think you're very wrong. We have done well over a decade of evidence-based research, which has been cited widely, using technical means. We've verified hundreds of individuals worldwide who are neither criminals nor terrorists and who have had their phones hacked using this type of spyware by governments, both authoritarian and democratic. In one of the most recent cases, in Spain, we uncovered a massive surveillance espionage operation—
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're talking specifically about Canada. The scope of the motion and the study we have here is specifically about the RCMP. We're talking specifically about Canada, if you could limit your answers to that, please.
Professor of Political Science, and Director, Citizen Lab, Munk School of Global Affairs and Public Policy, University of Toronto, As an Individual
Sure. As I said before, some of the remarks we heard in testimony from the RCMP were reassuring in terms of numbers and judicial authorization. I also heard, however, those numbers change in the course of a day. I heard that the Privacy Commissioner was not apprised of what's going on. I also heard the RCMP itself, in direct response to a question, say, “Yes, we undertake surveillance of Canadians”, which would be silly not to say because that's part of their job.
The issue is precisely the lack of transparency and public accountability. The way we're entering into this conversation is kind of backwards, frankly. This was disclosed, it seems to me, almost by accident, and we shouldn't be having a conversation like this about this important topic in such a manner. That's not disinformation. What we're dealing with here is a very important question. We need to be mature about it and talk about it forthrightly, rather than casting aspersions on people who are bringing up these important issues.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you for that, Professor Deibert. I appreciate it.
Monsieur Juneau-Katsuya, do you have any comments on that?
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
Well, I like very much, as I mentioned, the necessity to exercise control, accountability and transparency as much as possible. They are a cornerstone of our democracy. At the same time, we have a responsibility to work against and protect Canadians against some very serious threats that do not have any concerns about the philosophical debate of what is right and what is not right. They do it, period.
I'm absolutely and totally in favour of this capability to find the right balance, to question ourselves and to work constructively in allowing officers to be capable of performing their duties, while at the same time making sure, just as I said, that the end cannot justify the means. We have to be capable of striking that balance in order to be capable.
That also returns to the responsibilities of elected officials. Police are at the tail end of a problem. We're trying to resolve something when we are facing the problem. Sometimes the problem, like terrorism, emerges from the lack of actions taken by politicians earlier when the grievance was brought to their attention. It's not necessarily that you believe or you accept the grievance, but you must be capable of taking action. This is what the work of this committee is so important for.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
That concludes that five-minute spot. Now we're going to the third round. In accordance with the formula adopted by committee, first will be Mr. Bezan for five minutes.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome to our witnesses. I didn't have a chance to ask questions earlier of Mr. Juneau-Katsuya.
Sir, I'm dumbfounded with what you just testified in saying that former politicians and politicians who are considered potential national security threats are being monitored.
In your experience as a former CSIS and RCMP officer, in those situations would jurisprudence be followed to ensure that their charter rights were protected by the issuing of warrants to wiretap or use spyware on those individuals?
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
To my knowledge, when a warrant was necessitated, yes, we used the warrant and the judiciary process was followed. Very often the politicians or elected officials, as I like to say, were not necessarily the initial target, but they actually came to our attention when we were watching foreign intelligence officers or foreign criminals or Canadian criminals being in contact with them. It became a concern to either CSIS or the the RCMP when these people demonstrated certain activities or certain actions that were questionable in light of the responsibility of their office.
Conservative
James Bezan Conservative Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB
In these situations, should I, as an elected official who has been very outspoken in my support for Ukraine, Taiwan, and other democracies that are under threat, be concerned that I may be spied on by Canadian federal agencies because of my advocacy for those countries?
Expert and Researcher on National Security and Intelligence, As an Individual
No, but you're likely to be concerned about foreign entities spying on you or—