Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Does that amount to a pressing emergency?

[Scott Millar]

It is absolutely a massive preoccupation for me and my colleagues, and that is why we're putting every effort to—

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

We were told earlier that pressing emergencies are actual or imminent life-threatening situations, a disaster that endangers quality of life or safety of Canadians, a disaster that results in loss of life, or a disaster that results in significant loss or damage to Crown property.

Which of those definitions applies in this case?

[Scott Millar]

I would defer to my colleagues on what applies in that case. What we can speak to is what we're bound to do legally, dealing with the numbers that were crossing, those high volumes, and assessing them for possible national security risks or other elements of inadmissibility, which could include organized criminality, human rights violations—

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

I'm very sorry. I never like to interrupt anyone, especially a witness, but we are on the clock and under quite a bit of pressure for time right now.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Kelly, before I begin, I'm going to cede my time to Mr. Villemure to continue his questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Okay. Monsieur Villemure can continue for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Millar, if I am not mistaken, the people are first met by the police. Then they are transferred to another location, several kilometres away, where the RCMP takes over. Ultimately, the Canada Border Services Agency takes charge of them. Is that right?

[Scott Millar]

That's true. The RCMP receive them, do an assessment on criminality and do security checks and then bring them to us for further processing.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I am going to ask you my next question even though you are not with the RCMP.

I went to Roxham Road last Friday but I was denied access. I wanted to go and see, personally, what the situation is, since we are talking a lot about it.

Is it reasonable to prevent a parliamentarian from seeing what is happening at a facility where people are being held? I assume that these people's identity is verified before they are sent on.

[Scott Millar]

I honestly wouldn't be able to speak to that. My understanding is that parliamentarians have visited the area, but on the specifics of what they saw and had access to, I would have to defer to the RCMP.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Proulx, what do you think about the whole situation referred to by Mr. Millar, including the numerous access to information requests relating to it?

[Dan Proulx]

Can you restate the question, please?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Is this situation problematic?

[Dan Proulx]

From the access to information perspective, this request is not particularly different from the others. We receive them by the thousands, relating to various subjects and having varying degrees of sensitivity.

Making an access to information request to see documents that the Canada Border Services Agency has in its possession is a very particular process. It is a fundamental right.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Because of the volume of requests you receive, it takes time. Do you think the time taken here is reasonable?

[Dan Proulx]

Absolutely.

Today, Monday, in my division, I handled 6,000 access to information and privacy requests in progress. Tomorrow morning, I will receive 100 new requests. It is absolutely reasonable, when we have only just got our bearings again after the pandemic, for us to be in the situation we are seeing now. There is no problem in terms of the requests.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you, Mr. Proulx.

The last two questioners of this panel will be Monsieur Paul-Hus and Mr. Fergus. I'm going to cut it to three minutes each, and then we'd like to transition to the next panel as quickly as possible after that.

Thank you. Go ahead.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the witnesses from the department.

From what I understand, the fact that Mr. Guay's land is really very close to the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle border crossing suits everyone. It is the simplest way to handle the situation, for everyone. We might say that Mr. Guay won the lottery: he demands the price he wants and the government pays, just like that.

The people arrive by Roxham Road, but a little farther away there is another border crossing, which is obviously smaller, and a campground. Were there negotiations with other people? You mentioned farmland earlier, but facilities could have been set up on the campground, probably at a lower cost.

However, Mr. Guay and his land are there, the high price is paid, and no one asks questions. We are talking about several tens of millions of dollars.

The hotel we are all familiar with, that I referred to earlier, has not been used. We know that there is enough space in the trailers for approximately 500 people to sleep there. You mentioned 400 people, but that was in 2017, when the phenomenon first began. The current average is 100 people a day. After 24 hours or 48 hours, at most, those people are sent to Montreal or Toronto.

You say that dormitories are going to be built in Mr. Guay's buildings. There are already 500 people being housed in the trailers. The space available is therefore entirely sufficient. As well, in summer, tents have been provided to accommodate 3,000 people.

The hotel is not being used. You told me earlier that it may have been used a bit, but I do not know for whom. Why is the government continuing to spend money on this hotel?

[Stéphan Déry]

I would like to offer two clarifications.

First, as I said earlier, we provide a service for federal government departments. The rental of the hotel came with a number of services, at the request of my colleagues at the Canada Border Services Agency, the CBSA. Those people are handling the flood—

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

With all due respect, Mr. Déry, I have been an MP for seven years, and in all that time, we have been told the same thing: the CBSA and the RCMP make requests and you carry them out.

Everyone pays and it costs a fortune. We would like you to tell us how this need is proved, but we are never able to get a clear answer. What is the cause of this need? Do you question it? When we ask you the question, you answer that you are going to pay without asking questions.

Ultimately, I want to point out that Mr. Guay has hit the jackpot because his land is close to the Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle border crossing. This could be organized elsewhere. But no one is able to answer my questions about this.

[Stéphan Déry]

I would like to make a correction. We are renting the hotel at the request of the people from Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, for them to use. They are the ones who manage the number of people who arrive, not us.

For our part, we have to make sure that the properties and the hotel are rented at a reasonable cost to Canadians. That is what we do.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I know you are doing your job, Mr. Déry.

The problem lies in the reasonableness of the costs, in our view, and that affects a number of cases.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

We'll now go to Mr. Fergus for the final three minutes, and then we'll change panels as quickly as we can.

Go ahead.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to come back to a question and give a summary, because I think it is very important.

Apart from the public servants and contractors at Public Services and Procurement Canada, no public office holder, whether politicians or ministers' or members' office staff, were involved in the decision-making throughout the process relating to these contracts. As well, the value of these contracts is well below the threshold at which the minister's approval is required. Is that correct?