Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 17th, 2022

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

If you're interfering, that's one thing. In terms of those involved on the ground within the various levels of leadership involved in something as complex as this, the designation of an emergency is what I'm really trying to get down to. What is taken into account there?

[Françoys Bernier]

Thank you for your question.

Regarding putting the leases into effect,

there is no notion of emergency per se. That applies only to contracts, as my colleague Lorenzo pointed out earlier, but for

the lease signings and the lease improvements included in the leases, there was no notion of emergency.

The only notion we operated on was the context in which our clients were asking us to put these leases in place. The main criteria were location

and the speed with which they could be put in place, given our clients' operational context at that time.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Okay.

I'm just curious. Because there are a limited number of landowners associated with the Roxham Road crossing, who did your office at Public Works negotiate these leases with? Would you share that information with the committee?

[Françoys Bernier]

The PSPC leasing agents in the Quebec region negotiated by mutual agreement with Mr. Guay for the lease of his lands and buildings near the border crossing.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Were the negotiations done directly with Mr. Guay? Was a third party involved, or a lawyer or something like that?

[Françoys Bernier]

The negotiations were conducted by mutual agreement between the department's employees in the Quebec region and Mr. Guay.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

When it comes to the use of the national security exemption, you just mentioned three different parties that were at the table. Which one of those parties requested a national security exemption or made the assumption that it was required?

[Stéphan Déry]

My colleague Lorenzo was talking about procurement contracts through which we buy material. We buy it, and then that national security exemption would apply. Here we're talking about leases. In these cases, there are no such clauses of national security exemption. This is solely based on the requirement of a client. In this case, it's CBSA, the operational need of CBSA on the ground, and the speed at which they need the infrastructure in order to respond to the crisis or the number of asylum seekers, which is increasing.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

We go now to Ms. Hepfner for up to five minutes. Go ahead.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for their testimony today.

Mr. Déry, I'm wondering if you can go back to 2017 and lay the scene for us. What was the context? What was the urgency? Why did the government have to expand its services near the border crossing?

[Stéphan Déry]

Thank you for the question.

I think since PSPC is the supplier of services to the Government of Canada, we were not living the situation in Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle. My colleagues of CBSA, IRCC and RCMP were living it.

I don't know if Mr. Moor or Mr. Proulx would like to answer regarding the situation in 2017 at Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Sure. Please go ahead.

[Jonathan Moor]

I'm happy to give some information on this point.

When somebody crosses the border between the ports of entry, the RCMP intercepts those individuals and they do their own criminal record checks, and then they deliver the individuals to the port of entry to do an admissibility check.

In this case, at Roxham Road in 2017, it was not possible to process that number of individuals at the existing port of entry at Saint-Bernard‑de‑Lacolle. Therefore, additional accommodation was required on an urgent basis.

The combination was required for a number of different functions. The first function was to do intake of the individuals and have a waiting area for them. The second function was around processing those individuals, initially to check identity but then to also consider admissibility, to provide humanitarian aid, canteens, washrooms and shower facilities, and also in some cases to provide sleeping accommodation if there were too many individuals to process at the same time.

This is still a requirement today. Up until now, all of these facilities have been provided through temporary mobile accommodation, and in 2021, a leasehold improvement was agreed to using PSPC as our lease arranger with Monsieur Guay to actually retrofit two of his own buildings, which would allow us to consolidate these functions. These were the functions that were required. Clearly in 2017 there was an urgent requirement, because on one day I think we had up to 400 asylum seekers coming across the border.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

What would happen to all those people if that infrastructure was not in place?

[Jonathan Moor]

We have to provide humanitarian assistance to those individuals as soon as the RCMP hands them over to us. This is why we have to have the infrastructure. It's very important to know that our infrastructure has provided the facilities for those individuals, but once they are processed, they are handed over to the province or to the IRCC.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Déry, maybe I can go back to you and ask this. We were talking about the procurement of that land. I'm wondering if you can say whether there's anybody else you could have negotiated with to get the facilities you needed to process the refugees coming across the border.

[Stéphan Déry]

My colleague Françoys will add to that, but in real property and in an operation like this.... As my colleague Mr. Moor mentioned, 400 people can cross the border each day. When we look at a situation like that and respond to our client's needs, they wouldn't want us to rent them something, because over the weekend, back in those days, the team of my colleagues went around to see what we could get. Then we were talking about 15 or 20 kilometres away. Now we were getting into the logistics of transporting all those migrants before they would be checked.

Mr. Guay owns all the land around Saint-Bernard-de-Lacolle, as you can see on the map that was provided to every member of the committee. Outside of that is agricultural land that is protected by the province, so it was quite difficult in a situation like that to respond to the urgent needs of our client, to turn around and find a place where we could install. At the time, if we go back to that time, the idea was that it was going to be an issue for a month or a couple of months. Now it's been five years. At the time it was a pressing requirement—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Let me ask this quickly.

Leasehold improvements, the improvements to the land, were a big part of the spending of that $28 million. Is that right?

[Stéphan Déry]

Absolutely, it was, for all the buildings that were owned by Mr. Guay. We had to bring electricity and additional water to the warehouse. All the infrastructure was put in place. Leasehold improvement is a big portion of the cost.

[The Chair, Conservative, Pat Kelly]

Thank you.

For two and a half minutes, we'll have Monsieur Villemure.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

My question is for Mr. Millar and Mr. Moor. I don't know which of the two will be able to answer.

Is the fact that we are receiving 400 people a day at Roxham Road not contrary to the spirit of the Safe Third Country Agreement?

We are building permanent structures for a project that was supposed to be temporary.

[Scott Millar]

I'll say a couple of things just to clarify. Over 100 people a day cross at Roxham Road; it's not 300 to 400. I just wanted to give that figure.

The STCA, the Safe Third Country Agreement, applies at ports of entry. Those crossing irregularly between points of entry are the responsibility of the CBSA, and they are not covered under the STCA.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Still, we are making a structure for the non-application of the Safe Third Country Agreement permanent. Correct me if I am wrong.

[Scott Millar]

We have to accept those who cross irregularly. We have no legal authority to direct them back. They have a right to make a claim, and the process that my colleague Mr. Moor described in terms of the flowthrough allows us to assess their eligibility to make a claim to the Immigration and Refugee Board after we have screened them and given appropriate screenings for security, for health and for identity. We are required by law to receive them and to do those checks.