Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 28th, 2022

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

I think it's tough, because the country context matters so much when you're talking about access to information.

For example, when we're talking about digital government, Estonia is often referred to. The old CIO used to talk about Estonia a lot. There was a little Estonia craze there for a while. There are tons of interesting things happening there, but for us it just doesn't compare. Canada is so much bigger. Our division of power makes it really complicated.

I think there are things we can learn from other countries, of course, but we have to be careful to not just adopt what works well in another country. We need to make sure that it actually works for us, for our unique national context, and one of the things—

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have to stop you there because I have very little time.

Do you think it's useful for Canada to look to the General Data Protection Regulation or the Australian model?

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

Yes. It's always interesting to look at other Commonwealth countries. Again, the context here, even though we're part of the Commonwealth, is still a bit different.

One thing that makes things a bit different for us—and this really goes to access to information and open government more broadly—is our Official Languages Act. That's a unique country context that impacts our information holdings and disclosure and that Australia is not dealing with in the same way.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Can you elaborate on the challenge around official languages?

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

I think the difficulties are.... We want to think about open government initiatives to release information in both official languages at the same time. Oftentimes, the Official Languages Act is actually used as.... It's kind of held up as an impediment to openness in government and to further transparency, as in, “Well, we can't do it because we don't have it translated yet” or “It's too expensive to translate it, so we can't release this information.”

I think the act has been used as a mechanism to circumvent transparency in some cases.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

We try to address official languages challenges as best we can for the purposes of our country, but we haven't fixed everything.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Associate Dean Francoli, I would love the opportunity for you to be able to address the questions in regard to the principles of open government. What principles require the greatest—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Excuse me, Mr. Green. Can you turn on your camera, please? We can't see you.

There you go. Thank you.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. My apologies for that.

I want to return to Associate Dean Francoli in regard to the principles of open government. What principles require the greatest improvement, given the current access to information regime in Canada?

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

Open government is really founded on the ideas of accountability, access to information and civic engagement. I would say that those are the three big things that underpin open government.

I think we have a lot of civic citizen participation opportunities. Things are changing, and I think there's been an effort to improve the way that citizens are engaged.

I think access to information is still the big one. In the first couple of action plans to the Open Government Partnership, there were more commitments made around access to information, but I think it's just such a difficult one to move forward. I think this alludes to some of the disappointment I mentioned earlier around Bill C-58. As well, it's hard for public servants to move forward and to get buy-in on change related to access to information. They kind of stopped being included in different commitments on access to information within the action plan.

For me anyway, access to information itself is the big principle of open government that we need to improve here in Canada.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What would that look like, specifically, if you had examples for this committee?

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

I think it would look like a much more significant reform to the Access to Information Act we currently have. If we were being really ambitious, we would establish a transparency strategy that would bring all of these different sorts of open government and transparency initiatives together, so we could see how they work with one another.

There are all kinds of interesting things happening across the Government of Canada. A lot of hard work is being put into open government, all of which is outside the scope of the act. I think, over time, it will hopefully help ease some pressure on the access to information system.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

We have a round of two and a half minutes scheduled. I'll just remind the committee that we are running over time here.

Mr. Kurek, you have two and a half minutes or less.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll keep this short.

First, thank you again, Mr. White, for your service. I'll just emphasize that access to information is not simply about government accountability. As we heard in your testimony, it relates directly to ensuring that government cannot cover things up. In your case, these are things related to ensuring that victims get justice. Thank you for that.

Dean Francoli, I appreciate your testimony. I'll note here that the namesake of the college you are dean of.... I'm proud he was born in Battle River—Crowfoot. I'm glad to have you before the committee.

I'll simply ask the two quick questions I've asked all our witnesses thus far. A yes-or-no answer will suffice.

I'll start with you, Mr. White.

Is a functioning, strong access to information system needed in a modern democracy? A yes-or-no answer would be great.

[Patrick White]

Yes, it's imperative.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Go ahead, Dean Francoli.

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

I like how you promoted me to dean. That's very kind.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

Looking at previous meetings, I anticipated this question. Yes, I would agree, as well.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

You might have anticipated the next one: Do you give Canada's current access to information system a passing grade?

Again, I'll start with Mr. White.

[Patrick White]

No, and I think the victims and their experiences speak for themselves, on that point.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I'll go now to Associate Dean Francoli—maybe, one day soon, Dean Francoli.

[Prof. Mary Francoli]

I don't know if I want that job.

If I think of the system in a way that's bigger than just access to information legislation, I would say we pass. If you're asking specifically about the Access to Information Act, I would say, no, we have a ton of work to do.