Evidence of meeting #53 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aws.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nicole Foster  Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl

December 14th, 2022 / 4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Good afternoon, everyone.

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 53 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Therefore, members can attend in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. Should any technical challenges arise, please advise me. Please note we may need to suspend for a few minutes, in order to ensure all members can fully participate.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by this committee on Monday, November 14, 2022, we are resuming our study of privacy concerns in relation to the ArriveCAN application.

I would now like to welcome our witness for today. From Amazon Web Services, Inc., we have Nicole Foster, director of global artificial intelligence and machine learning, and Canada public policy.

Ms. Foster, I want to welcome you to the committee today.

We have just one witness, Mr. Villemure, so a sound check wasn't done.

Ms. Foster has asked the committee for seven minutes to address us at the start, and I have granted this.

Ms. Foster, the floor is yours. Please go ahead.

4:30 p.m.

Nicole Foster Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

I'm delighted to be here with you to speak about data privacy and security today, and how these apply to applications that run on Amazon Web Services, or AWS.

My name is Nicole Foster, and I am the director of public policy at AWS.

I'm responsible for our global AI and ML policy strategy, and our Canada public policy strategy.

As you may know, AWS is a subsidiary of Amazon that provides on-demand cloud computing services for individuals, companies and governments on a metred, pay-as-you-go basis. The “cloud” refers to the on-demand delivery of IT resources over the Internet, such as servers, and the software applications and databases that run on them. Despite their name, cloud services are physically located on the ground in data centres all over the world, including here in Canada. Organizations that use them do not need to own, run or maintain their own physical servers or software applications. Instead, they can use the cloud to run applications on demand, paying only for what they need.

AWS is the world's most comprehensive and broadly adopted cloud service provider. Millions of customers, including the fastest-growing start-ups, the largest enterprises and leading government agencies, are using AWS to lower costs, become more agile and innovate faster. This is all done with state-of-the-art security controls.

AWS is architected to offer the most secure cloud-computing services available today. We support more security standards and compliance certifications than any other cloud provider, thereby helping satisfy security and compliance requirements for virtually every regulatory agency around the globe. We are proud of our record in maintaining the privacy and security of Canadians. Our cybersecurity assessment reports are available to any customer. They include our detailed assessment from the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security.

As you know, in early 2020, AWS was contracted by the Government of Canada, through established Shared Services Canada procurement channels, to work with the Canada Border Services Agency and the Public Health Agency of Canada. The objective was to help launch aspects of the pandemic response program.

In the case of ArriveCAN, specifically, AWS's role was to securely host the application on the AWS cloud. In addition to that, we worked with CBSA and PHAC, providing expert advisory services related to ArriveCAN security and infrastructure architecture. This included implementing the Government of Canada's standards on cybersecurity; integrating ArriveCAN with the rest of the CBSA and PHAC ecosystems; enabling architectures and security that have supported major new functionality throughout the two and a half years since it was launched; providing tools to enable CBSA to monitor the integrity of the data and support its operations; and ensuring that AWS services were configured to minimize the overall cost of AWS to Canada, while supporting the ability to ensure high availability of the program to Canadians and international travellers.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to further elaborate on the security and privacy measures we have in place at AWS. Security and protecting Canadian citizens' data are at the top of our priorities.

Our customers benefit from data centre and network architecture that is built to meet the requirements of the most security-sensitive organizations. AWS customers in Canada can place workloads, applications and their data in an AWS infrastructure region located here, in-country.

Specifically, our Montreal region—we refer to a collection of data centres as a region—enables customers to address data compliance and residency requirements. Our extensive security technologies, 24-7 monitoring and alerting, and rigorous attention to all aspects of securing AWS infrastructure are designed to ensure that customers' data can be used by only them.

The services we provided for ArriveCAN were architected in alignment with the security standards set by Shared Services Canada and the Centre for Cyber Security. Our physical data centres and on-site personnel have been inspected and assessed for compliance by Public Services and Procurement Canada's industrial security directorate. As well, AWS personnel who worked and/or continue to work on ArriveCAN are all Canadian citizens. All have their reliability status, which is governed by the Treasury Board standard on security screening.

Mr. Chair, AWS is vigilant about its customers' privacy and sensitive information. To be clear with you and all members of this committee, AWS personnel did not at any point in time have access to any personal data from Canadians while working on ArriveCAN.

In conclusion, AWS is proud to have supported our customers during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, but we understand that when the public interest is at stake, additional questions may be asked. Within the confines of our agreements, I will endeavour to answer these questions to the best of my ability today. Our focus remains on providing scalable technology services, with security as our highest priority.

Thank you for this opportunity.

I would be pleased to take any questions.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Ms. Foster.

For the sake of the committee, just as a reminder, I left a half-hour for committee business, for which we'll be moving in camera at approximately six o'clock.

Ms. Foster, I don't know if you've been in front of committee before. We have four rounds of questions, and each party gets six minutes.

We'll start with Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair, and thank you, ma'am, for joining us today.

How much was AWS paid for work on ArriveCAN?

4:35 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

I understand that this information was provided by CBSA to the House of Commons on September 20.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

There was information provided. Some of the questions I'm going to ask may be information that the government has provided. There's been a bit of a challenge, though, with the reliability of the information that the government has provided. I'm looking to get a confirmation with the data points that I'm seeking from you.

If you don't have any of the information I'm asking for, perhaps you could provide it to the committee in writing following your appearance. Would that be okay?

4:35 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

For any information related to a customer, we would need the consent of the customer to provide that information. If there's specific information that the committee needs, I'm happy to go back and work with CBSA in order to provide that to you.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay.

Are you able to tell us how much? Is the number that the government stated the correct number?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

Yes. We noted from what was reported by journalists and by what was provided to Parliament that this was consistent with our understanding of what was billed.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

That's great. What was that number?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

I believe it was approximately $4.29 million.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

It was $4.29 million. Thank you.

How do you determine who's working on what, which resources are being used on particular projects, and how much to bill the client? How do you track that?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

In the case of how we provide those services, the rates in terms of those services are prenegotiated with the Government of Canada through the cloud framework agreement. It's a standard base price.

In terms of the skills we're looking for, all our solution architects—who were members of the team that provided those services—are experts at our cloud services, and particularly experts on security services. The team in this case was hand-picked based on the security requirements of the project.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

How do you quantify the billing units for cloud services? Would that be done by minute, by gigabyte...? How would you do that?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

It's complicated. The billing of the actual cloud compute is done based on services as well as units of compute. It's difficult to predict in terms of usage, but basically customers are charged only for what they actually use. It's a consumption-based billing service. The rates in this case are pre-arranged through the framework agreement, so again, it's a standard base price.

In terms of the expert advisory services, those are a weekly unit.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

How much business do you do with the Government of Canada when it comes to cloud services?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

I don't actually have that figure. That would be a number we would have to work with the customer to provide to the committee.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Would you be willing to commit to the committee to work with your customer to provide that number to us?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

It would be the broader Government of Canada, so it would be by line department, I guess. I'm not sure how we would do that, but I'm happy to work with others to figure that out.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I appreciate that.

You also offer professional services separate from your cloud services? Is that correct?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

The terminology in the cloud framework agreement is “advisory services”.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Is that “proserve”? Is that what that is?

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

That would be our internal marketing language, but that's—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

That's what would appear in a contract, for example. It would be described as such.

4:40 p.m.

Director, Global Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning, Canada Public Policy, Amazon Web Services, Inc.

Nicole Foster

I believe the framework agreement would describe it as advisory services.