Evidence of meeting #56 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was process.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Yes. Integrity, for example, is mentioned, but it is not defined.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
That's right.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Yes, except in the Conflict of Interest Act.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
It would be difficult to distinguish between a conflict of interest and a confusion of interests.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I believe that is determined by the observer, but I will refrain from commenting on the decision of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
We are talking about theory, and not about a specific case.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Okay.
Bloc
Conservative
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Certainly some important questions have been raised. Obviously, there's something left to be desired within our legislation as it exists, given that, repeatedly, there has been a propensity for ministers, people in senior positions, to kind of get caught in a situation. I'm hoping that over the course of the study we might be able to unpack some ways in which we can improve upon just precisely who is responsible for what.
From that perspective, I'll start with you, Mr. Stewart. In your role in senior leadership, how do you view your responsibility for supporting ministers to prevent them from entering into conflicts of interest? Is that something that is within your role as a senior adviser to ministers?
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
As a general matter, it is not.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay.
Mr. Pilon, under the purview of procurement, we've heard, I think, some basic introductions into how your work works. Is it part of your responsibility to help, to assist, those who are procuring to avoid conflicts of interest?
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
We do provide instructions to contracting officers if they become aware of a conflict of interest in a procurement matter. The instruction provided to our procurement staff is that the decision-makers in the process should recuse themselves from the actual decision with respect to awarding the contract. However, that is when it is known.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
The purchasing officer was a departmental official, so there was a staff member who entered the information and prepared the contract—
NDP
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
No, it was departmental staff. Then another individual, who was departmental staff with the delegated authority, signed the contract.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
They were delegated, in theory, by the deputy minister under the procurement policy.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
It is referenced in paragraph 62 of the report that “Ms. Ng's participation in the decision to award the April 2020 contract to Pomp & Circumstance is clear”. I think it's clear, based on the findings of this report. We both agree that Minister Ng basically initiated this contract.
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
That's what the commissioner found, but let me clarify one point, if I may.
While there are departmental officials involved in the execution of these contracts, the material decisions to pick the supplier in a sole-source contract, to determine the contract price and value, and to tell the department to write up the contract and at the end to approve payment all rest with, in this case, the minister's office.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay. From that perspective, it's safe to say that.... Let me just ask the question. I don't want to presuppose.
Are both of you aware of the Conflict of Interest Act and its obligations?
Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I am. I am subject to it.
Director General, National Accommodations, Domestic Procurement and Asset Management, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I am also aware.
