Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 7th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's on this point of order, Mr. Chair. I don't do this often, so let the record show that I'm raising what I would say is support for Mr. Dalton to be able to examine, with whatever breadth he needs at this committee, issues around procurement and ethics.

I would suggest that the constant interruptions are often perceived as a tactic rather than a bona fide point of order. If members want to create a point of order, I would challenge them to come up with ones that are closer to the Standing Orders.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate that intervention. I was going to say that next. Just because you don't like what somebody is saying, it is not necessarily a point of order. It has to relate to the standing rules.

I will say that we have to stay relevant on the issue. I'm going to ask Mr. Dalton to bring this back around to the issue we're dealing with, and that is the “Ng Report”.

Mr. Fergus, go ahead, please. Is it on the same point?

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is on the same point. That's why I am bringing it up now rather than interrupting my colleague, Mr. Dalton.

When we passed our motion to examine the “Ng Report” here at committee with my friend, Mr. Barrett, and we talked about this, the record will show that we made a commitment to focus on this issue alone, and that we wouldn't bring up other issues.

That's the only reason I'm raising this. Mr. Dalton wasn't at that meeting. Welcome to the committee, Mr. Dalton. I hope you'll enjoy your time here.

Mr. Chair, I do appreciate your trying to bring this back to the issue and to the study at hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

I'm sure Mr. Dalton will bring this back.

Go ahead, sir. You have a minute and a half.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Thank you.

We are the ethics committee. We're talking about contracts and about some serious breaches. I'm speaking about a trend. That's one of the reasons I brought this up. We're talking about this one minister who has spent a very significant amount of his budget on social media. We are seeing the same thing here with the Liberal minister's friends, very close friends, I would add. We have also seen this with McKinsey. We're hearing more about Liberal cabinet ministers and their staff, and how they're awarding contracts to relatives and friends.

Do department officials advise against this?

[Rob Stewart]

No, sir. Where a sole-source contract is involved, at this point in time, we execute it on behalf of the minister's office. The obligation rests with ministers and their offices to determine whether there is a conflict of interest. We could indeed improve the system, but that is how it works today.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

I do appreciate your comment to Mr. Green regarding one possibility of even a box to check or some sort of verification. I think that would be very helpful.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Dalton.

We have one more line of questioning, and that will go to Ms. Hepfner.

You have five minutes. Go ahead, Ms. Hepfner.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Pilon and Mr. Stewart, for being here and for answering our questions today. You have been very fulsome in your answers, so I apologize in advance if some of these questions become a little redundant.

I'll take you back to 2020, when we were in the midst of a pandemic. In particular, the international trade and small business department suddenly had a lot of programs to administer across the country. I think 900,000 businesses took the Canada emergency business loan.

Can you talk about the importance, during that time of a global pandemic, of the department having to suddenly communicate these new programs to businesses? Maybe you could comment on how big that task was. It had these new programs, and it needed to let people know about their existence and how they worked.

[Rob Stewart]

As I said in the comment I made earlier, I believe it was very important for Canadians to know what was available to them in terms of service and support at a very challenging time economically. That was clearly, I would think, the principal consideration there.

The other comment I'd make is that the effort to do that, to come up with ways of supporting Canadians, was the responsibility not of one department but of many. Indeed, some of these programs for business support were done largely through the Department of Finance, with other departments as assistants in that, including the Canada Revenue Agency. So there was a coordination question around communicating to Canadians that would have applied to departmental officials generally, to those who had to speak to the media in particular and to ministers as well.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You've spoken a little bit today already about how we can improve transparency in the awarding of contracts. I'm wondering, if you had more time to reflect, whether you could think of more ways we could be more transparent so Canadians would have confidence in the contracts for the services the government procures.

[Rob Stewart]

Well, I will note that all contracts issued are proactively disclosed a quarter after they are issued. That's for any contract over $10,000. Canadians do have access to all government contracts, their nature and amount, so, to some degree, the system relies on the accountability that's provided to Canadians and the processes and tools available to them to reinforce that.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Could more training be done among public servants to help departments help ministers manage their obligations in this way?

[Rob Stewart]

You've heard me suggest that I think that usually training could be offered to exempt staff. I believe the departmental officials are very well trained, and it's a matter of process.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Can you tell me about the difference in contracts and how long they take to award? What are the factors that determine how long it takes to award a contract? How long does it typically take for a contract to be awarded until it is played out?

[Daniel Pilon]

There is, actually, a varying timeline for contracts. If it's a sole-source contract for simple services for which a vendor is identified, the department could, in practice, award that within two weeks to a month, on average. If it requires a competitive process or the services are undefined and we need to do some additional research and possibly market research, it is not unusual for a competitive contract to take anywhere between nine and 12 months to be awarded, and there have been instances in which it has taken longer.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

If you as a government are in a situation where time is of the essence, does that play a part in the decision-making?

[Daniel Pilon]

Consideration is given to how critical the service is. There are certain policies that allow for emergency procurement, and what constitutes an emergency is defined in a policy, which would allow for a streamlined approach to procurement. However, that is made at the initial determination of what goods or services are required, and that is made in collaboration with the contracting officer.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay.

Those are my questions.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

Thank you to the committee.

Thank you to our witnesses, Mr. Stewart and Mr. Pilon, for being here. On behalf of the committee and on behalf of Canadians, I want to thank you for your work.

We are going to suspend for a bit, and when we return, we're going to return in camera so we can deal with the committee work plan going forward. We're going to have a busy time here discussing this.

The meeting is suspended for a few minutes while we move in camera.

[Proceedings continue in camera]