Information & Ethics Committee on March 31st, 2023

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

In 2019, NSICOP, the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians, which is made up of parliamentarians of every stripe, studied the whole issue of foreign election interference and made a number of recommendations that, it would appear, the Liberal government did not follow through on.

Our Prime Minister most recently, in light of all the information that has been leaking, has indicated that he has to do a better job and follow the recommendations.

How does it make you feel, sir, knowing that the Prime Minister, who had this information four years ago, essentially ignored all those recommendations?

[Kenny Chiu]

Thank you.

I try to be as non-partisan as I can, but frankly, being a targeted person of a particular ethnic race, I feel like I'm vulnerable and that my government is not there to protect me when it's needed.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Chiu, and thank you, Mr. Brock.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As candidates, we're all victims of misinformation and disinformation when we're in an election. There were campaigns against me that I was going to legalize hard drugs and things of that nature.

I want to go back to Mr. Stanton, because the community I live in has Filipino, Indo-Canadian, Hong Kong, mainland Chinese and strong Muslim Canadian communities. We have a five-kilometre corridor in the city, called the “highway to heaven”. Every religious institution, about 28 of them, are all along this corridor. It's a very mixed community that I've lived in my whole life. It's important to me.

We had a list of all the nations you were talking about, including the U.S.A., India, the PRC, Iran and Russia. Are there more that we need to be mindful of?

I understand that you said that China is number one; they're the A-team. Are there others that are maybe developing a bit more?

It's clear that Canada is, as we've said for many years, a long-standing target. Everybody wants to trade. Everybody want to get an advantage.

Are there other nations that are emerging?

[Dan Stanton]

In terms of foreign interference as it's defined in section 2 of the CSIS Act, no, there aren't a lot of others. We have to also bear in mind that foreign states do want to influence what goes on in Canada. That is part of normal diplomacy and engagement. It's no surprise that a certain state would probably, with a particular diaspora community, want to have some engagement there. The service looks at it only when there's evidence of clandestine activity and things like that.

I would say, probably on a positive note, no. I wouldn't say that a lot of those communities are targeted by, let's say, their foreign state equivalent in interfering in that. It's just a few principal ones.

Bear in mind that CSIS doesn't look at elections, which you would be happy to know. They're just looking at a target of a threat, the individual who may happen to run for office, or you may happen to do that. They don't have investigations in which they're looking at communities and the politics that goes on or things like that.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Do you want to add anything?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Yes. I would like to add a bit to complete Mr. Stanton's comment.

There are other countries that have been identified, as well. Radio-Canada in Montreal, for example, has found out that Rwanda sent three agents to the community to monitor, intimidate and report.

We also have Saudi Arabia, for example, sending people to do exactly this type of bullying in the community. They are being very aggressive in that respect.

Dan also mentioned India, which is very active in the community, and has been for decades in that respect.

We could go on like this.

There are also some friends. France, for example, has been doing it since Vive le Québec libre.

We've been subject to those kinds of foreign interference for a long period of time. Unfortunately, we don't have the tools to investigate properly. Unfortunately, even the $50 million that will be given to the RCMP.... What will it do? Will it simply take the complaint?

We don't have anything in terms of a law that will be capable of punishing people. They are not only foreign states; they are also agents who are Canadians, who are recruited by and who are acting on behalf of those foreign states. That's where we are very much lacking.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Go ahead, Mr. Wilczynski.

[Artur Wilczynski]

The only thing I'd add to what my colleagues have said is that we shouldn't only be looking backward at the actors that have, in the past, targeted our democratic institutions. We need to look at how the threats to our democracy are evolving and how technology is, quite frankly, going to democratize the ability for hostile actors—state and non-state—to undermine confidence in our democracy and undermine the social cohesion that holds Canadians together.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Yes, and that's why I was trying to find out about other emerging nations that are there. That's why it's important for me to be here.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

We have about 35 minutes left. We're going to go to the next round and start with Mr. Barrett for five minutes.

Go ahead.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I can take the full 35 minutes, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Is there any objection?

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have several questions, noting that I have only five minutes.

Could I have a few quick, yes-or-no answers from you, Mr. Juneau-Katsuya?

Is it your belief that the current Prime Minister knew about foreign interference—not influence attempts—in the 2019 and 2021 federal elections?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

I wouldn't be able to say if Mr. Trudeau was informed. I can go only with the allegations that were presented in—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Pardon me for interrupting.

Based on your experience over the last 30 years, is it your belief that he would have been briefed on it?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you believe that sufficient action was taken in response to it by the government?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

No.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Do you believe, based on media reports and on your experience, that the current government benefited in any way from interference attempts in the 2019 or 2021 elections?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Potentially.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

We know that the CCP undertook a campaign to gain influence with Mr. Trudeau through clandestine funding of his family foundation, the Trudeau Foundation.

Do you believe that campaign has been effective?

[Michel Juneau-Katsuya]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. Stanton, it's been reported that in June 2017, the Prime Minister's chief of staff requested a brief on foreign interference in Canadian politics and that the briefing said there is a substantial....

Are you familiar with this report, sir?

[Dan Stanton]

Not really.