Information & Ethics Committee on April 18th, 2023

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I can't answer that question, but I can get a bit more information.

Like you, I think that's something all members experience in their constituency offices. We are in the process of putting tools in place to deal with those cases.

As I said earlier, in the past, we processed files in paper format. Now, we receive files in various formats. That is why we are putting digital systems in place.

I also want to reiterate the importance of encouraging people not to necessarily submit ATI requests, but to consider submitting service requests when they want to access records, without having to go through the ATI system.

That said, we have to respect the fact that Canadians have the option of submitting ATI requests.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister and Mr. Gourde.

Mr. Bains, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us again today with your colleagues.

Information management is essential to ensuring requests are completed as efficiently and effectively as possible. What work is the government doing to improve information management?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for that question.

Again, during the review, it was highlighted that information management requires improvements to create a more efficient ATI system. We've identified several key actions to address some of these issues by, for example, the inclusion of building operational capacity through, as I said, recruitment, training, investing in modern IT software and enhancing practices and directives.

However, I do—and we must—recognize that much more needs to be done to improve the access to information regime. A more consistent, strategic life-cycle management of the Government of Canada's information could yield broad improvements across government, service delivery and program efficiencies. Therefore, we're really looking at how we can make sure that we reinforce the system and strengthen it.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

We've heard from several witnesses, including the Information Commissioner, about the importance of our declassification system. What work has been done to move forward with declassification?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Again, as we've said, declassification is an important part of the work to improve the ATI system. We have done a declassification pilot with Public Safety. I might ask Stephen to share a bit of what we learned or found out and we know will help to guide us on the next steps for declassification.

[Stephen Burt]

I have had the privilege of working on both sides of the declassification file, from a national security standpoint and now as chief data officer for the government.

What I would say is that the pilot project has shown us some of the challenges of looking at historical files and declassifying them, and the kinds of resources it requires to do that work.

I would invite the committee, in the course of its review of the Access to Information Act and the report, to consider what recommendations it might want to make to us as we move into the action plan the minister referred to here. There is a need for some policy direction. When you look at what is happening in the international domain on declassification, there are some very rigorous policy set-ups out there. The U.S., in particular, has automated, systematic and mandatory declassification regimes.

I think we need to look at what options would suit Canada and figure out where it is we need to go in this space in order to set the right course for that action plan.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

We have seen and heard that changes through Bill C-58, while improving transparency and openness in government, have changed the nature of requests.

Can you elaborate on the changes of these requests and how they impact the ATI system overall?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I think we just mentioned the example of IRCC. Many are trying to find out what's happening with their cases, so they are going through ATI requests instead of being able to look on the service side. That is one thing. We're trying to find ways to reduce that burden.

There might be others my colleagues could give as examples, because I think that's where we're at right now.

Go ahead, Stephen.

[Stephen Burt]

I would say that access to information is like many legacy services for Canadians: We need to go from an analog system, as Ms. Luelo said, into a digital service line.

Access to information is an important right and an important principle in the functioning of a democratic system, but there are many things that are now coming through access to information that could more properly and easily be dealt with as a service to Canadians.

The IRCC situation is similar to having to do an access to information request every time you want to see your taxes with CRA. It simply isn't a sustainable model or how you deliver a modern service. We need to think about how to move more things into that channel.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Do you want to add?

[Catherine Luelo]

I will just give comfort that the program, in terms of how we're modernizing the technology at immigration, is well in flight. Again, we're not waiting for action plans to take place. We're working very closely with our IRCC colleagues to better digitize that experience.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Luelo.

Thank you, Mr. Bains.

Go ahead, Mr. Villemure. You have two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

I've been listening to the comments, and I'm wondering something. Do the changes under way represent a genuine effort or just the bare minimum?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I take this work seriously. It's genuine

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

All right.

When the Information Commissioner was here on March 7, she said she doubted that ATI issues would be addressed, because the work didn't appear in any ministerial mandate letters.

Where do things stand?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It's a government priority, and I have the privilege of undertaking this work.

It's important for me not only to meet with the committee, but also to support the team working hard to find ways to strengthen the system. This is a priority we are working on, and I take it seriously.

I've even discussed it with a number of cabinet members, and some feel we need to keep enhancing the system.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

Appearing before the committee on March 7, 2023, the Information Commissioner also stated that, although Bill C‑58 conferred the power to issue orders, those orders are not always respected because they are not the same as court orders.

Do you think it would be helpful to amend the Access to Information Act to make the Federal Court approve those orders in order to streamline the process?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The Information Commissioner can appeal to the Federal Court to require an institution to comply with those orders. That power has not be exercised so far though.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So it is up to her to do so.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

She can do so, but to my knowledge she has not done so as of yet.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

The report you published included comments and observations indicating that exemptions and exclusions had not been uniformly applied or had been misunderstood.

What have you done to address this?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Can you be more specific?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Before the committee, the Information Commissioner stated that the Treasury Board report included comments and observations regarding exemptions and exclusions that are not uniformly applied or that are misunderstood. She also stated that no recommendations had been made to remedy this.

What will you do to address this?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ms. Fortier, please be brief.