Information & Ethics Committee on April 25th, 2023

[Dean Beeby]

People much smarter than I am—lawyers, for example—will tell you that, yes, it should be considered a human right, and there is UN language to promote that.

I am just a more practical person. I just think that citizens in this country need to help hold their governments to account and have to know what their government is up to. There are many avenues for finding out what government is up to, but the unique thing about access to information is that it gives a personalized avenue for individuals to ask questions of their government and to demand accountability of their government. It's a pillar of democracy in that way.

I don't know if you would characterize that as a human right—I think I would—but it's really part of our democracy, and the way we have allowed this dysfunction to develop really undermines our democracy.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that.

I'll get to asking you some questions about the minister's appearance, which I'm sure you watched last week.

I'd ask maybe about actionable results. I've spoken with individuals who are involved in the access to information system currently, as we've heard at committee, and some have great concern about what's going on. There seem to be a lack of leadership and a lack of metrics that would define even what “success” is in terms of being able to close files, in terms of accountability, in terms of being able to ensure that the things are even done.

Just to reference a bit of what the minister talked about, when she referenced the number of cases that were closed within a specific period of time, I couldn't help but laugh, because it was not my experience, having filed quite a few ATIPs when trying to look for answers for constituents and on other important issues that face Canadians.

In terms of how the ATIP offices within departments and agencies work, what would you recommend be done so that we can see some actual results?

[Dean Beeby]

The statistics that we need to assess the performance of individual departments are collected by Treasury Board and the departments themselves. They're already suspect. It's also a very poor data collection system methodology.

Many of the statistics that we read, such as the one the minister cited last week, are not reliable and are in fact misleading. We need to have metrics that are independent and reliable to assess the performance of individual departments. As it is, it's masked.

The minister said last week that 70% of requests are answered within the legislated timelines. That is very misleading, because legislated timelines include these crazy extensions, which often last for a year or more.

Yes, the system looks somewhat good at 70% until you consider that it includes all those enormously long timelines to answer those requests. The minister gave us a good example of misleading statistics that make it look like the system is working, when in fact it's not.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

You kind of answered what was going to be my next question, so maybe I'll take it in a bit of a different direction—technology.

I know that access to information is incredibly complex, because you're dealing with paper documents; you're dealing with, in some cases, cabinet confidences; you're dealing with solicitor-client privilege. There's a whole host of things. One could debate each of those things individually. However, I'm just curious as to whether you would recommend guidance to the committee on how to approach the use of technology in terms of being able to improve access to information for Canadians.

[Dean Beeby]

You may be surprised to hear this, but I'm for AI. I think AI has a role in this process.

I mean AI that's responsible, AI that can be audited so that we know what goes on in the black box of AI we use for this system. I don't think we should be shy about looking at that kind of new technology to help streamline the processing of requests. I think it could do a great service, just thinning out these grand volumes of emails, for example. Emails are a frequent target of requests, and I think AI would be one way to use technology.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek and Mr. Beeby.

Ms. Khalid, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'll start with Mr. Beeby.

Do you believe that Canada is a democratic state?

[Dean Beeby]

Do I believe that Canada is a democratic state? Yes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Do you think that our access to information system, as it currently stands, does provide access?

In your opening remarks, it sounded a bit like you were of the opinion that nobody had access to any information on what the government is doing right now. Do you think that Canadians have access currently?

[Dean Beeby]

Not adequately, no. I've been around since the act came into force in 1983, and it worked relatively well then—

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm so sorry, sir. I'm just asking if you think that Canadians have access currently to what government is undertaking right now? Is the government transparent in certain ways right now?

[Dean Beeby]

Is the government transparent in certain ways right now? I'd have to have more detail. I don't know what you mean by “in certain ways”.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

The current ATIP system.... I know that Mr. Kurek has put in over, I think, 300 requests—was that it, sir? He's put in more than 300 requests for information from the government on various programs. Those are in the works.

Do you think Canadians are able to request information and to receive that information currently with the government right now?

[Dean Beeby]

Do you want a yes or a no?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Yes, sir.

[Dean Beeby]

No.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Why is that?

[Dean Beeby]

Well, as I tried to describe to you in my last appearance, the system is broken. It does not do what it was intended to do when Parliament passed it in 1982. It has been getting worse over the years. We are now at a point where journalists, for example, are abandoning it because it's no longer useful.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

You're saying that if a journalist makes a request, they will not receive the information they are requesting.

[Dean Beeby]

Well, again, are you asking me for a yes or a no?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

I'm sorry. I'm just trying to differentiate between whether it's, “No, you cannot have access to this information,” or, “You can have access to this information, and there's a delay because of some systemic barriers,” such as labour issues and such as digitalization.

I'm just trying to differentiate between whether you think this is a deliberate attempt to not provide information to Canadians, or whether it is a systemic issue we can try to resolve with this government. In your opening remarks, you made a reference to corruption, and I just want to clarify whether you think the government is corrupt or the system is broken.

[Dean Beeby]

As a point of accuracy, I didn't use the word “corruption” in my opening remarks.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Okay, well, I'm just trying to understand. You submitted some recommendations that were, in your opinion, not accepted in what the reform process for access to information is going to look like. Perhaps you can give the top recommendation that you think is going to fix this broken system, in your opinion.

[Dean Beeby]

Okay, well, last time I was here, I gave you four. If you want the number one that I gave last time, it was to reduce cabinet secrecy. It won't fix the system, but it will go a long way toward that goal.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you.

Just turning to our other witness, who is here virtually, you used the word “secret” many times. You used the word “secret” to refer to a number of things. You used “secret corruption”. Have you raised this issue in previous governments? What has been your track record to ensure that there is transparency within government, and how is “secret” involved in perhaps spreading disinformation as well by members of the Canadian community?