Information & Ethics Committee on April 25th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you think automatic declassification systems after a number of years could help reduce the number of access to information cases that CSIS has, and would therefore help relieve you of that burden?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

I think that in general it would be rational to assume that if there was automatic declassification across the government, we would see a reduction in access to information requests.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Specific to CSIS, though, you're an organization of secrets, but you're not a secret organization. I've heard that in other instances myself.

What would be the risks of declassifying this information?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

Again, it pertains to the specific file. From a CSIS perspective, I think automatic declassification is not something that would be in the best interests of Canadians. We would still need to do a line-by-line review to ascertain whether exemptions applied.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm going to deal with specificity, if I may, because you're obviously very well trained at this type of discourse.

If it's already publicly available with our partners, what is the logic of keeping it classified in Canada?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

Again, I think it stems from the legislation that we're operating under.

Sir, I know I'm not exactly answering your question, but—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I appreciate that's being put on the record.

I'm sorry, but I will ask one more question. It's a personal one.

Tommy Douglas was the subject of much attention to the RCMP over the years. That resulted in a case...I believe Bronskill had to sue, go all the way to the Supreme Court.

Are there still redacted files on Tommy Douglas? Do you still consider Tommy Douglas a threat to national security?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

I don't have specific knowledge on Tommy Douglas's files.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

Maybe I'll have to FOI it. Is that what I'm hearing?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

That would be the U.S.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Right, it's ATIP.

[An hon. member]

You could probably just get it from the U.S.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes, I probably could get it from the U.S. You're absolutely right.

Okay, as a part of its information review, the Treasury Board published a list of key access to information measures that were being implemented and planned and are under way. Among these, it was noted that Public Safety Canada, in collaboration with the national security intelligence community, Library and Archives of Canada and the Treasury Board Secretariat, is leading a declassification initiative.

Does CSIS participate in this?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

We are not involved in the pilot at this point. I'm not privy to whether we have been participating in any discussions, nor whether those conversations are currently active.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Again, and I'm not trying to be rude, but what exactly is your title with CSIS?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

It is deputy director and senior assistant deputy minister for policy and for strategic partnerships.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You wouldn't be involved in these conversations?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

There are hundreds of conversations that are happening at any given point at working levels throughout our organizations.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You wouldn't be briefed on those conversations coming to this committee today?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

I would be briefed on conversations. What I'm not privy to is whether there are active conversations happening at this moment on declassification. There are several initiatives that ebb and flow with time and based on the priorities of the government.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

What initiatives is CSIS currently taking to improve access to information?

[Dr. Nicole Giles]

We have several measures that we're undertaking. We constantly review our training programs. We are also putting in place—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm going to interject on the training program.

There was a list...that members within your department were not actually accessing the online training regime. I'm just wondering, in which ways do you train your...? For instance, an annual report stated that there wasn't any formal training on ATIP for CSIS in 2020-21 and that there were “ATIP e-learning narrated slides” that were available and mandatory for all employees. However, “during the 2020-21 fiscal year, 241 service employees viewed the ATIP online module”.

A 2022 “People of CSIS” infographic states that there are 3,367 employees. How do you provide ATIP training to the other 93% who are not accessing the e-learning modules outside of their orientation?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Green, we're 30 seconds over the six-minute intervention.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have two coming later on, so you can jot that down and then come back to me.