No.
Evidence of meeting #67 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #67 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
9:55 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
No.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Are there any misperceptions, or maybe inaccuracies, that have been reported about the Trudeau Foundation that you would like to clear up?
9:55 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Well, I did mention, as part of this file that I was dealing with, that in December 2016 there was an article in the National Post in which the former CEO, Morris Rosenberg, talked to the journalist about this Chinese donation. I will quote from it very briefly:
In a letter responding to the Post’s initial report, Trudeau Foundation president Morris Rosenberg emphasized that the...foundation does not count the $200,000 donation from Chinese nationals Bin Zhang and Niu Gensheng as a foreign donation since it was made by a company registered in Canada.
This was a declaration on behalf of the foundation to say that it was not foreign money, that it was Canadian money—this was in the annual report as well—when in fact the tax receipt itself mentions China. I think this is something that is misleading to Canadians. Indeed, there's a difference between what the tax receipt said, mentioning China, and the fact that it was presented publicly in terms of interviews, and publicly in terms of the annual report that is currently on the website of the foundation, as Canadian.
9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Going back to the donation, I think you mentioned that you were trying to figure it out, but why was the donation ultimately returned by the foundation?
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
We issued a cheque with the name that was on the tax receipt. We sent it to that address. They attempted to go several times to this place to find the donors, because obviously you need someone who will receive the cheque and sign, physically, that they have received it. There were several attempts.
Finally, they could not find anybody who would take the cheque. The cheque was sent back to the office of the foundation on March 23. From March 1 to March 23, there were several attempts to deliver that cheque.
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes.
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
It was ultimately returned to the office of the foundation, mentioning that no one took the cheque or no one was there to take this cheque.
10 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
Ultimately, what are the principle objectives of the Trudeau Foundation as to what it could do with that money? Was it to have scholarships awarded? Do you know exactly what the money was used for at any time?
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
This money was never used, because it could be used only to organize conferences around China and the relationship between China and Canada.
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
The conferences never happened, so that money was never spent. It was kind of a deferred donation that could be spent only if we were going to meet the contractual obligation of organizing these conferences on Canada and China.
10 a.m.
Liberal
Parm Bains Liberal Steveston—Richmond East, BC
The money just came and went. It came, but it never got spent, and then it was attempted to be returned to somebody.
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
It was attempted to be returned and, as I mentioned, after finding out about the role of that Chinese cultural association industry and so on, we—
10 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Madam Fournier.
Once again, I'm sorry.
I have to cut people off. I don't like that part of my job, but we have to be fair to all members in their time.
Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for six minutes.
10 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Fournier, very early in your testimony, you mentioned that the foundation was possibly receiving guidance from China. Can you tell us more about that? Who was receiving what? What kind of directives were they, or at least what was your impression of them?
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
The emails were from this China-based association. They were sending emails to the foundation's employees to mention what information should or should not be included on the tax receipts, such as names or addresses. So there was a lot of email traffic between foundation employees and this China-based association.
In fact, the donors were virtually absent. Their names did not appear in the emails. For example, in some of the emails, the association simply said that the donors were thanking the foundation, but as far as I could see, there was no direct link between the donors and the foundation. The link was between this association and the foundation. It was as if communications were done through proxy parties.
In 2017, under an access to information request, some 160 pages of documents were sent to the Globe and Mail. These pages included almost everything: the contract, employee notes, employee emails, copies of tax receipts. All of this had already been sent. I, for one, was unaware of it; I didn't learn about it until early March. This access to information request was very important. It all pointed to the pressure, I might say, that was being exerted as to what should appear on the foundation's books.
10 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Are these typical of requests the foundation might receive from other donors?
10 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
No, not at all.
I was the person at the foundation who adopted a policy to accept donations. Under my stewardship, when there was a significant donation, a firm of lawyers was responsible for checking who the donors were, where they were from and what their intent was. I would carry out an in-depth review of donors before signing anything. In 2018, we began to do the same thing to check on scholars, fellows and mentors to ensure that governance was totally sound and irreproachable.
I wasn't at the foundation prior to 2018, so I don't know what the practices were at the time. However, based on what I was able to see in the foundation's books, there were no background checks of donors by a lawyer. Nor did a law firm look into the contract itself or the person who signed it. Based on what I was able to determine with the head of financial services at the foundation, Caroline Lin, there had never been an exercise of that kind.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
You mentioned earlier that the policy on accepting donations had been different, depending on whether it was under $1 million or over $1 million.
What is the average value of gifts that you receive?
10:05 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I can tell you that at the time, it varied. We often received small gifts. The vast majority were from foundation alumni, and around $100.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
What about gifts from other sorts of organizations, which I would describe as major donations?
10:05 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
That was unusual.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Okay.
Are there donations from citizens of other countries who do not have any direct link with the foundation?