Evidence of meeting #67 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was foundation.
A video is available from Parliament.
10:15 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes, that is correct.
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
You freeze the money, essentially. You don't use it because you're not comfortable with a foreign entity using your organization's name to further foreign interests through academic conferences and the like. Is that correct?
10:15 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
We did not touch the money because the only way to touch the money was to organize these lectures around China, which had nothing to do with my mandate. I had adopted a brand new strategic plan. We were going to a different destination. We were not going to China, and we were not doing anything with regard to China.
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Was it part of the previous mandate? When you took on the organization, did you see within the mandate or the board governance...?
10:15 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
No.
10:15 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
Yes.
10:15 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Okay, so a reasonable person looking at this could suggest that a $200,000 donation to the Trudeau Foundation, for the purpose of furthering Chinese interests in Canadian academic spaces, could be either interference or influence.
Would that be fair to say?
10:15 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
If I may answer very quickly, the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation is about academic knowledge. One of the key themes is Canada and the world, so we could imagine having conferences around China, Brazil or Brussels. It could be done in an academic milieu. I don't see a problem with that.
The problem to me was what was done in terms of the background check regarding these donors. I had many questions, and I wanted the law firm to help me.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Green.
That concludes our first round. We're going to our second round now, and I am going to start....
Go ahead, Monsieur Villemure.
10:15 a.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
I have a point of order, Mr. Chair. I'd like to introduce a motion that would enable us to call Mr. Edward Johnson. The motion is currently being drafted and we will submit it to the clerk.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Has the motion been circulated, Madam Clerk? No.
Mr. Villemure, could you introduce your motion when you have the floor? You can't introduce a motion on a point of order.
Ms. Thomas, you have the floor for five minutes.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
Ms. Fournier, I'm curious. If you were to point us to those who have the most pertinent voices with regard to this matter, who are the most important people that we should be hearing from at this committee?
10:15 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
That's a great question.
The vice-chair of the board of directors, who has resigned, Dyane Adam, a former language commissioner here for 10 years, was asked to become the chair from a legal standpoint. She was approached by our lawyers and they asked her, given the fact that the current chair was there at the time and was the chair of the audit committee. They said, “It would be good for you to become the chair to handle that matter.” I think it would be very important to hear from her, given the fact that the lawyers contacted her and asked her to take a proactive role.
I would also mention the board members who resigned together on that day. I think it would be very important for you to hear from them—given the fact that we had an emergency meeting on March 31 and that they resigned 10 days later—about the motion that they circulated and how it went in their opinion.
10:15 a.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Earlier you said that you had items that were “taken” from you. That is the word you used. I'm wondering when that happened. When were the items that you were using in your role as CEO taken from you?
10:20 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I resigned on Monday, April 10, and it was at the end of the day that I resigned. I sent a letter to the board members and to the members. On that day, they immediately shut down my email access so that I couldn't reach out to the scholars, fellows and mentors to explain to them that I was resigning. That's the first aspect.
If I remember correctly, it was the day after that the foundation asked the IT individual to come to my house to take my computer, my iPhone and the Internet access that I had, so I bought a new phone, computer and so on. They asked me not to keep any documentation, anything that I had access to.
When I came to you today, I had almost nothing. I have annual reports that are public. I have some documents that are of a public nature. I did ask for a few emails from individuals who had received them and asked if they could send them to me so that at least I could speak to you today, but I do not have all of the information I had at the time.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
I'm curious that they came to your house. Is that customary?
10:20 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
I don't know if it is customary, but what they mentioned was that because they were paying for my phone, my computer and my Internet.... They were at my house from six o'clock until 12 at night to make sure that they would leave with everything, any possible access to computers, iPhones, Internet and so on.
They insisted on the fact that they wanted to read all of the text messages, and that I was not allowed to touch any of the text messages. I collaborated and obviously gave back everything that I had.
You will understand that I have access to almost nothing. I remember a lot of from memory, but I had some individuals who sent back some emails so that I could testify today.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
I'm just going to touch base on the donation being returned. You said a cheque was written and a cheque was delivered. Was a cheque cashed?
10:20 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
No, the cheque that was sent had to be actually received physically from the donors themselves. That's how it works. You send something, and you cannot just give the cheque to anybody. The donors themselves were not there from March 1 until March 23. They attempted several times to go and find the donors so that they could take the cheque and really take the money. They could not find them.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
What happened when it was returned was that I received legal advice not to give back the money and actually to have that unrestricted forensic audit to understand everything regarding that donation, with the possibility that the donors themselves were not the real donors. All of that had to be understood with experts, so I found the experts.
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
Conservative
10:20 a.m.
Former President and Chief Excecutif Officer at the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation and Full Professor at the University of Ottawa Faculty of Law, As an Individual
When I was there, no.