Information & Ethics Committee on May 2nd, 2023

[Morris Rosenberg]

Sure. I worked for Anne McLellan, Martin Cauchon, Irwin Cotler, Ujjal Dosanjh, Tony Clement, Leona Aglukkaq, Lawrence Cannon and John Baird.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Would you say that a deputy minister has to remain non-partisan, and how do you go about doing that in your job as deputy minister?

[Morris Rosenberg]

There are a number of ways you go about doing it.

First of all, you don't engage in overt political activity.

Second, to the extent that politicians try to politicize the public service, you push back on that.

Third, you give your best advice. The advice isn't tone-deaf to politics because there is no point in giving advice that has zero chance of being implemented, but it is the best neutral advice you can give.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

Just a moment ago, you were speaking about your selection by the Privy Council Office to write the 2021 critical election incident public protocol. How does one go about being selected to write a report like that?

[Morris Rosenberg]

Well, I got an email from the assistant secretary saying they were looking for somebody to do this independent report, which was done by another former colleague in 2019 after the election. They said, “Are you interested? Here is his public report on the protocol.” I read it, and I called him up and said, “Sure.” It looked like a really interesting job.

The other thing I should—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

It was a purely civil service process.

[Morris Rosenberg]

In fact, it was supposed to be independent of the government, so yes, it was a purely civil service process.

At the end of the day, the story about the Trudeau Foundation that there was a meeting in 2014—according to an anonymous source given to The Globe and Mail—where somebody apparently said to this donor, “Give money to the Trudeau Foundation and we'll pay you back”, actually came out on February 28.

I submitted my report before the end of the year, and there was no issue. As I said, I wasn't examining election interference per se; I was examining whether this protocol worked, whether the right people were talking to the right people and whether the standard in the protocol actually made sense because the nature of the problem of foreign interference continued to evolve from the time the protocol was first set up.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

One of the conclusions in your report, per the CBC, was that “attempts to interfere with the 2021 federal election did not affect the results”. However, you also stated, per the CBC, that the government “should consider changing the rules to allow the panel to alert Canadians to ‘potential’ impacts on election integrity.”

Please tell us what that would look like. At what point should Canadians be alerted? What would be the threshold?

[Morris Rosenberg]

This is an issue that I didn't actually make a recommendation on, but I said it needs study.

I talked to the Liberals, the NDP and the Conservatives—the Bloc Québécois didn't want to talk to me—and there are different views among the parties, but I felt that the threshold was so high that only something akin to Russian interference in the U.S. election in 2016 would invoke the threshold.

However, what happens if you are aware that one or two ridings or a particular ethnic group is being targeted with false information and nobody says anything to them? I think you may need to consider a way of communicating that to the public without saying the sky is falling and the whole election is going to be undermined, but in specific instances, there is a problem and they should be aware.

This happened in the U.S. before the 2020 election. Three weeks before, there was a press conference by the FBI and their cybersecurity agency about Iranians posing as Proud Boys and emailing voters in Alaska and Florida, telling them, “You'd better vote for Donald Trump or else.” These agencies came out and said this is false.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

You talked about the length of your time in the public service, so I'm sure you know that since 2015, this government has brought in several measures, including the creation of NSICOP, the security and intelligence threats to elections task force and the National Security and Intelligence Review Agency. There are more.

What was done before 2015 to counter foreign interference?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I don't recall what was done before 2015 to counter foreign interference.

The issue has really come up a lot more since the 2016 U.S. election. I think that spurred a lot of other things. There seemed to be Russian interference in the French election. I think that really raised people's sensitivity about this and the need to do things, and I would say that keeps evolving.

Just because the government put a five-point plan in a couple of years ago.... You cannot rest on your laurels. That plan needs to be updated. The nature of the threat is changing.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

We are going to move on to the next speaker.

Mr. Villemure, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Rosenberg, I'm sure you understand that I have only two and a half minutes.

I would like to know who organized the meeting of five deputy ministers at the Langevin Building?

[Morris Rosenberg]

It was probably me, and I will explain why.

One of the reasons why I got involved with the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation is the fact that, in my opinion, there are too many barriers between the world of research and the world of politics. I thought it was important that people in politics be aware of the research being done, because it is paid for by public funds.

I have to point out that during my own and my deputy minister colleagues' terms, when we had committee meetings—I chaired a committee on global issues, for example—we always tried to invite academics or members of research organizations to come and talk to us about their projects.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we are pressed for time.

It was actually quite surprising to see that the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation was in the Prime Minister's building with access to five deputy ministers. That is not a common occurrence.

[Morris Rosenberg]

It may not be a common occurrence, but the Langevin Building is located in downtown Ottawa, so it is very central and it is a place where senior officials often meet. The Prime Minister's office is not the only thing there; there is also the Privy Council office.

The subject of the meeting related to the economic benefits of diversity. Diversity, which is a subject of interest to the government, had been the subject of a research project by one of our fellows and one of our mentors. I spoke with someone and told him it would be useful for his guys to be aware of it.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'm sorry again.

Tell me, still, not everybody is given access to the Langevin Building.

[Morris Rosenberg]

I think you have to have permission. There are people who are there. It isn't a prison. It's accessible if necessary.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

So you don't find that unusual. I must be worrying about nothing, right?

[Morris Rosenberg]

I don't know whether it's as unusual as that. I was at the Privy Council Office too, for five years, and I wanted to hold meetings with people other than public servants. To make public policy, you have to be familiar with various points of view.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Mr. Green, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Given the media coverage of the donation in 2016, did you consider conducting an audit at the time?

[Morris Rosenberg]

No.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Did the foundation conduct any further investigation into the donors, the source of the donation or the conditions of the donation in light of the media coverage?

[Morris Rosenberg]

No, because the media coverage at that time was making a link between a meeting the Prime Minister had been at—a so-called cash-for-access meeting—and the proximity of that to the timing of the donation, and we knew that there had been no coordination with the Office of the Prime Minister or anybody else in the government on the timing of the donation. We were completely unaware of the dinner the Prime Minister attended.