Information & Ethics Committee on May 9th, 2023

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

But you will undertake to tell this committee who, in fact, did so at the foundation.

Is that correct? Do you undertake to do that?

[Edward Johnson]

I can undertake to do exactly that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You'll further undertake to tell us who exactly the refund was issued to, okay?

You will also tell us, sir, how that donation was transferred to the donor, whether by electronic transfer, whether by issuing a cheque from the foundation or by some other capacity.

Is that all understood?

[Edward Johnson]

I believe so.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Okay.

Now, I want to talk about the actual receipts that were given by the foundation itself when the money actually came in. You must be aware, sir, that there was an issue amongst the members as well as board members with respect to the discrepancies related to those receipts. Do you agree?

[Edward Johnson]

I'm not sure there was an issue. There was a concern raised by Dr. Fournier about whether or not the receipts had been properly issued. Subsequently we heard the testimony of Mr. Rosenberg, who was involved very much at the time—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sure. I'll cut to the chase. Two receipts were prepared by the foundation, the first for an installment of $70,000 in 2017 and the second for an installment of $70,000 in 2018, presumably coming from the same donor, the same source, yet two receipts from the Pierre Elliott Trudeau Foundation were completely different. One was sent to a corporation with an address in Hong Kong, which was subsequently directed by the Chinese government to send it on to Beijing. The second receipt was sent to a shell corporation, the Millennium group in Dorval, Quebec.

You, sir, as the chairman of the board, must be aware of that.

[Edward Johnson]

My understanding from what I've heard in the previous testimony and what I'm informed is that both receipts went to the donor.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

But you don't know that, sir. You're basing it....

I'm asking again. What preparation, sir, did you do for your testimony today?

[Edward Johnson]

I discussed a broad range of things. I reviewed a broad range of things, but I'm chair of the board, and my involvement in day-to-day detail is quite minimal.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You're the chairman of the board. You came here because you wanted to clear the air and correct the factual inaccuracies from Dr. Fournier. This is your opportunity, and I'm sorry, sir, you don't have the opportunity to say, “I don't know. I didn't look into it.” You're relying on previous testimony, sir. That does not give you a pass. That is not proper governance.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Brock, your minutes are up.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I really question what governance policies you had in place.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Your six minutes are up. Thank you.

Mr. Fergus, you have five minutes. Go ahead, please.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and through you, I'd like to thank Mr. Johnson for being here today.

Mr. Johnson, I'd like to go through a bit of the timeline and perhaps leave with a general question.

I'd like to confirm with you that Mr. Zhang had made a donation to the University of Toronto earlier than 2014 for an amount of about $800,000. Is that correct?

[Edward Johnson]

That's my understanding, yes. It was in honour of Dr. Norman Bethune, a Canadian.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's right. It was in honour of Dr. Norman Bethune, who played a major role in China's modern development.

Mr. Zhang also approached l'Université de Montréal in 2014 to try to make another donation in honour of Pierre Elliott Trudeau, who was the prime minister at the time when they opened up normal relations with China. Is that correct?

[Edward Johnson]

That is what I understand.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

So negotiations really started then. That's when the foundation was brought in, because of the use of the name of Pierre Elliott Trudeau. Is that your understanding?

[Edward Johnson]

That's my understanding, again, from the testimony of Alexandre Trudeau. That's right.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Fair enough.

Were there any conditions, as far as you were aware, attached to the donation in terms of being able talk about China, to promote the interests of the—

[Edward Johnson]

The agreement, and I think the agreement is included in the materials that have been provided to the committee and which I have read, specifies what the foundation is to do, and it's pretty broad. It has a lot of latitude, so that's the framework within which the donation was to be acted upon.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Mr. Chair, I forgot to start my clock. Can you tell me where we're at?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

There are two minutes and 53 seconds remaining.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you, sir.

Was there any contact between the foundation and Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's office, as far as—