Information & Ethics Committee on June 20th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to put this question to both of you. A Financial Post article quotes the founding executive director of McMaster's public policy program, who stated the following:

It does seem like a sort of obvious or blatant hire that says, “This person was a Liberal insider who was (in charge of policies in) our industry...and now we’re going to leverage his knowledge and insight for our benefit,”... It sort of seems like a classic instance of regulatory capture.

Do you believe that the Lobbying Act and the Conflict of Interest Act allow for regulatory capture?

We can begin with you, Ms. Bélanger.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I will repeat myself. Obviously, there is a gap in the Lobbying Act, and I think it needs to be fixed. I'm applying the law as stated now, and I think, if it should be broader, then it needs to be looked at.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Robinson-Dalpé...?

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

It's the same thing under the Conflict of Interest Act. We interpret the act as it is written. It was legislators who determined, for example, that sections 33 and 34 are the only two that continue to apply after a cooling-off period. Sections 33 and 34 are quite specific. It's inappropriate for us to speculate, but when a public office holder accepts the appointment, there's a violation of section 33 or 34 automatically. We have to wait for facts. If there are facts that are brought to our attention, we will look into them.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you believe that the act could potentially allow for regulatory capture as it is now?

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

Based on the situation that we have before us, I would say yes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Ms. Bélanger...?

[Nancy Bélanger]

I will say yes as well.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

That's all that I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Thank you to both of our witnesses.

We have two more rounds of five minutes. We're going to go to Mr. Kurek, followed by Ms. Khalid.

Go ahead, Mr. Kurek, for five minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for coming here today.

One of the consistent concerns I've heard from constituents and others who have reached out is the cloud of suspicion and doubt that is raised when somebody like a former industry minister takes a job—I imagine it's a fairly well-paying job—with a company that is highly regulated and dependent on government.

It's certainly not the first time. I know John Manley, from a previous Liberal government, had also taken a job. I believe he sits on the board of Telus. It's not a unique experience.

Certainly, when you're the minister in charge of the regulatory agency that basically allows a company to live or die—and I'm simplifying things, but I think it's the way many Canadians see it—the perception of conflict is there, certainly in the eyes of the public.

Commissioner and director, would you agree with that statement that the perception of conflict and cloud of doubt exists?

[Nancy Bélanger]

Yes, possibly.

In this case, with respect to the lobbying, it would appear that Mr. Bains will not be lobbying federal officials. If he were to, however, he would be subject to the code of conduct. The code is pretty prescriptive, as you all know. You've all studied it, and, therefore, there are many people he would probably not likely be able to speak to in light of the code of conduct.

I'm confident that the regime—of course, with the weaknesses that exist—has some parameters in place to reduce that risk of actual conflict or a sense of obligation being created.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Ms. Robinson-Dalpé...?

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

Under the Conflict of Interest Act, as I mentioned previously, we do not look at perceptions of conflicts of interest. The act is quite specific that conflicts of interest must be either real conflicts of interest or opportunities, so potential conflicts of interest.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Again, it's that cloud that exists. How can we be sure the former minister wouldn't be in touch with some of his former cabinet colleagues? Certainly, the information he would have learned over the course of his time as minister would be highly relevant to the operations of a highly regulated company that is dependent on that.

Again, Ms. Robinson-Dalpé, how can we be sure of these things?

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

The act is a good-faith system. When we look at sections 33 and 34, the office has to be provided with information to the effect that those two sections are being violated or have been contravened. We can't speculate and say, “Oh, because this person accepted a position at that company, automatically there's a contravention of sections 33 or 34.” There has to be some information that leads us to believe that a contravention has occurred.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Can I add? With respect to the Lobbying Act, if anyone lobbies when they're restricted, it is an offence, so there is a risk that this will go to the RCMP. I'm hoping it's a deterrent and helps people from communicating when they shouldn't be. However, again, there's that 20% that's allowed.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Director, one of the concerns that was highlighted to me was the timing. We had an interim ethics commissioner right around the time Mr. Bains took the position. Again, it's just the timing of that, the perception and the cloud of doubt surrounding this.

Would you have any comments around the timing of that?

[Lyne Robinson-Dalpé]

There were no decisions required by a commissioner on this particular file. Essentially, it was based on information. The cooling-off period had lapsed. Therefore, there were no rules that required a decision. At that point, the adviser went back and communicated that the rules no longer applied and the prohibitions no longer applied, but that the former minister had to be mindful of sections 33 and 34.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Ms. Khalid, you have five minutes.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First and foremost, through you, Mr. Chair, I'll start by thanking our witnesses for not only appearing here today but for the important work they do in building and maintaining public trust in our democratic institutions.

I think the work that you and your offices do is extremely important.

Mr. Chair, I know that there were a number of members who had asked questions that we were not able to get answers to. Perhaps we can send those questions in writing and get written responses once our witnesses are able to do so, if that's amenable to you, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Sure. If members have questions they want to ask, they can write the commissioners' offices.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Perfect. Thank you so much, Chair.

With that, I cede my time and I again thank you for being here today.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Khalid.

That leaves me some time to ask a question, which I'm going to do.

Ms. Bélanger, you've been before this committee for several appearances. During the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct study your frustration was palpable. When it comes to updating the legislation, you mentioned earlier that it was last updated in 2012.

[Nancy Bélanger]

It wasn't updated. It was reviewed.