Information & Ethics Committee on Sept. 18th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's excellent, although I should say that I've always found it an interesting part of Canadian parliamentary politics that active members of Parliament can still vote on matters concerning industries in which they have individual stock holdings. I always found that an interesting thing, as it is in the States, but I digress.

With that being your first priority—you mentioned a backlog—is there currently a backlog of post-employment waivers for public office-holders?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

It depends on your definition of backlog. I think there were three or four.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are there any administrative monetary penalties that should have been imposed in recent months and have not been?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Again, for the administrative penalties, there's a process. Obviously, some people don't comply. There's an investigation, and then we send Lyne here to make the suggestion that this man should be penalized a certain amount. We go to the person and we say, “This is what has been decided. Do you have any comment or any excuse or any explanation?” Most of the time people say yes, there is, etc. Then, based on her recommendation, when the accused comes before me, I will say, “Under the circumstances, that's a valid excuse” or “No, this doesn't fly” and we issue these.

There are about 20 outstanding, and I will deal with them as they come up. These are not very complicated issues. I'm sure by the end of the month they'll be gone.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It sounds as though you're off to a very efficient start.

Given your vast experience, particularly on the bench as a judge, as well as your deep experience within the actual Government of Canada, I imagine that as you are getting into this role, you're probably already seeing some challenges that face the Office of the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, both in the short term and in the intermediate term. What steps do you intend to take during your mandate to address those challenges? What are the challenges that you're seeing right off the bat, and what will you be doing to address them?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

The challenge we see right off the bat is the effect of it. The act is deficient in not having a provision for what happens when the commissioner's term has expired or the commissioner is incapable or whatever. There should be a delegation principle. Either he can nominate somebody, or another commissioner—we have about three of them who report to Parliament—can step in, etc., with some provisions. That's a clear deficiency.

Other than that, it's a bit premature to ask me that after two weeks. I think that in six months I will have a much better idea and can share that with you.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's fair enough.

Commissioner, the fortunate thing for you in this interim position is that we are a very active and busy committee and I'm sure you will be back before us in no time. You'll be here before us and we'll be looking forward to maybe asking those questions again. It's always my interest at this committee to try to find systems and structural recommendations that we could provide the government, and we hope to strengthen the act, so even having you here before us today just suggesting these early deficiencies and suggesting delegated authority in the interim is a good piece of testimony that we'll take into consideration at committee.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Thank you, Commissioner.

That concludes our first round of six-minute questions. We're now going to the second round of five-minute questions.

I have Mr. Kurek for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Commissioner, and thank you for coming before us. We acknowledge fully what I'm sure has been a very busy couple of weeks for you. Thank you for your time here.

Commissioner, one of the things that I hear often from constituents is a general erosion of trust in institutions.

Being a part of the ethics committee, we have dealt with a whole host of questions around the conduct of public office holders and some of the perceived challenges that exist and that have led to that erosion of trust, and with the situation where the former interim commissioner was announced and it was quickly revealed that there was a close connection with a senior Liberal cabinet minister. She did the right thing and stepped down, which was important in not eroding that trust further, but the fact that it happened was certainly seen by many—I heard a lot about it from constituents—as poor judgment on the part of the Prime Minister. The act clearly articulates that there has to be consultation for the appointment of a commissioner, but not an interim commissioner, and that is certainly something that needs to be addressed.

As I was preparing for this meeting, I looked at your CV as well. You have an exemplary record of public service, but just because this is a question that I'm asked often by constituents.... It is about some of those conflicts of interest that are perceived to exist. I almost hate to have to ask you this, but just to make sure that it's on the record.... It's about whether you have a connection to the Trudeau Foundation, a relative of a cabinet minister, an in-law of a cabinet minister or some of those other very high-profile connections that have cast doubt on some of the other situations that have contributed to this erosion of trust.

I'm hoping, Commissioner, that you can comment and just put that on the record exactly, to clear up whether you have any of those connections that have led in part to some of that erosion of trust that has taken place.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

To my knowledge, I have none. I have been retired for 10 years. Obviously, prior to retirement, I have been involved with a lot of people in government in both parties, etc. Most of them were business relationships. A few were also personal. Should one of those come up in any case, I will have no hesitation whatsoever to immediately recuse myself and designate somebody else to deal with it. It would be another one of the commissioners. Let's say I would ask the commissioner of lobbyist registration or somebody like that, another servant of Parliament like me, to basically deal with that.

I doubt that something would arrive, but who knows? I certainly am prepared to do that. It was the same thing when I was a judge. There was one case where my daughter was articling for a firm. She wasn't on the case, but I said right away, “Forget it. Assign it to somebody else. I don't want it even to come up.” If there is an inkling of conflict of interest, I, as commissioner of ethics, have to lead by example. There can be no question of anything, and I don't even want someone to be able to raise a point. I would immediately tell them to take it off the table.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I wish we had been able to have this conversation seven months ago. I appreciate your candidness in answering that question.

Commissioner, one of the things we heard from what is now your office is that there are a number of scenarios, investigations and files. You mentioned some of the challenges around the act in terms of not having a delegate and whatnot, that things sit on the commissioner's desk even when a commissioner is not there. I'm curious: That seven-month delay is a long time for an office to be vacant, especially an important one like this.

I think I have about 30 seconds left. Can you tell the committee how you plan to make sure that the erosion of trust that I talked about before in terms of that seven months of vacancy...? How are you going to work to make sure that this can be cleared up?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

First of all, the backlog will be gone. Also, it was trivial. The things that aren't trivial I will deal with. I'm known for being efficient and quickly making a decision. I don't sit on a decision for months, you know. I think very much that time is a very valuable commodity. If you don't make a decision, it corrodes. If something is hanging over somebody's head, let's deal with it rather than let a reputation corrode because there's no action. So, you can be sure that will be done.

In terms of trust, I think the biggest thing—and I said this in my opening remarks—is to be transparent, to explain the process and not hide behind some rules and say, “I can't.” No, no, I'm sorry. If I can't tell you, I will tell you why and what the rationale is, etc., so that people understand it, and say that what I'm doing is not because we're trying to hide something but because we're trying to protect somebody or somebody's reputation, or because the rules do not allow it. I think it's key to confidentiality that, when you invoke it, you explain the context, the rationale and also if or when it can be lifted or pierced, whatever the case or the situation may be. When I have something to say, I will share it with you. One of your colleagues asked me something and you heard me say, “Let's not pussyfoot around here.” That's the point.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I do that on purpose. I want to make sure that people understand I have nothing to hide.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I gave you a little bit of extra time there because I thought the response was very important to the question. Thank you.

We are now going to go to Mr. Bains for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome back, everyone.

Thank you to our witnesses for joining us. I want to echo the statements of my other colleagues here in recognizing your exemplary public service.

My first question comes from an interview that took place in mid-August with The Canadian Press. Mario Dion stated that he was not surprised that a candidate had not been chosen yet: “The field is narrow and few people would qualify for the job, or even want it, he said.”

My first question is this: What motivated you to accept the role? You mentioned that you've been retired for 10 years.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Just because I've been retired for 10 years, that doesn't mean I'm not interested in issues. I follow them. Besides, I was retired from the public service. I did a lot of consulting and writing on telecom issues, etc., because I like public policy. It interests me. I like it, as you can see. You can say I'm a public service junkie, and here was an opportunity. They obviously needed somebody. They had trouble finding somebody. I could be of service. Why not?

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

You seem like someone who feels that he can fix things. You're a problem-solver. What are the key areas that you want to...? I know you mentioned the backlog. What are some other things that you think are needed?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Your colleague just mentioned trust, restoring trust, making sure the systems works. We haven't forgotten about ethics. If somebody is there who looks after it, if you have an ethical problem, you can come to him for advice and for rulings, etc. It is an important part of the whole functioning of government: that people have trust in it and feel that if there are conflicts, the conflicts will be dealt with. If there's a vacancy and there's no commissioner, you have an office that can't act, because the act provides that only a commissioner can do it. That corrodes the trust, and that's why I thought, “Well, it has to be replaced.”

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Do you think the qualifications for the role are stringent enough? Do they need to be relaxed in a way?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I'm just looking at them in the act. You have to be a former judge, you have to have run a tribunal or something like this, and you have to demonstrate the expertise. Frankly, I don't think it's necessarily as narrow as Mr. Dion suggested.

It is also a question of how widely you cast a net and what criteria you establish for appointment, as you know. I don't know how PCO does it. I've been appointed by PCO four times to a position. I never know what criteria they use when they choose this one over that one. You'd have to ask them why they have such trouble finding the right person.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned social media a bit, or it was mentioned earlier. What is the role of social media in holding parallel inquiries? How would you deal with that?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Parallel inquiries...no. I don't think social media holds an inquiry. What it does is comment on it, prejudge it and put its slant on evidence and allegations, etc., that may have been proven or not. The main thing is not to respond to social media. Social media is there. You can't influence it. If you try to get in it, I think it's a mug's game. The key thing is establishing confidence in your process and doing it in a timely way. Don't leave things hanging.

No. This is an issue. It's before me. I will deal with it. You will hear it shortly. When I deal with it, I will deal with it on the basis of the evidence before me, the testimony and my judgment at the end of the day. I think that's the best way to deal with it.

Don't take on social media. Don't try to steer it or play with it, or something like this. It's a mug's game as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, it's there and it can serve as very useful information to spread your message out if your message is consistent and trustworthy.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have 25 seconds.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Maybe I'll ask a member of staff a question.

I know your office has been proactive in recent years in engaging with public office holders. Do you have any statistics that you might be able to share with us in terms of how much engagement you've had and some measurables?