Evidence of meeting #79 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was position.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's right. You say it more elegantly than I did.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
It's a force of habit.
I was also thinking that while strict enforcement is important, it can't be enough. Justice must be sought beyond legality, if you will.
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, it has to be legal, but at the same time we mustn't forget the purpose. If the law is difficult to enforce, you can't respect the spirit of the law, and you have to find a solution that better reflects reality.
4 p.m.
Bloc
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No. I was asked to take over this position for only six months, and I said I was prepared to do so for six months. We didn't discuss what would happen after that period.
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Frankly, I haven't thought about that. I've only been on the job for two weeks. I'm still in the process of understanding my role and getting the facts.
4 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
It's not a trick question at all. I was wondering why a permanent commissioner had not been found. I know that there's been a lengthy search and that it hasn't been easy. I was pleased to learn that you would be in this position for six months, but our goal is still to find out what's going to happen in the long term.
Do you have any idea—I'm not asking you for an opinion—why it's so hard to fill a position like this?
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Frankly, no. I think it's a very interesting position. It's just a matter of interest. You need someone with a lot of experience. It's not for someone who is just starting their career. You need a little experience in the government realm.
4 p.m.
Bloc
René Villemure Bloc Trois-Rivières, QC
Yes, you need to have seen how things work a little.
Thank you very much.
4 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Villemure.
We'll now go back to the Liberal Party.
Mr. Fergus, are you going to go first?
You have six minutes.
September 18th, 2023 / 4 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I would also like to thank Mr. von Finckenstein for being here.
Welcome to our committee. I'm very grateful to you for accepting this position.
I'd like to continue in the same vein as my colleague Mr. Villemure. First of all, you seemed to hesitate before answering Mr. Villemure's question about why you felt there weren't many candidates for this position.
I'll be more direct: Did you hesitate to accept this position?
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No.
I think I have the skills. I have experience and I'm very interested in the position. I've spent most of my working life in government. This is an area that interests me and that I understand. I was told there was an issue and the position had to be filled. So I was asked if I would be willing to take the position for six months, and I agreed to do it.
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Please ask me that question in six months.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Ha, ha!
Do you think people are a little hesitant due to the political nature of the position? Unfortunately, it is a somewhat politicized position.
4 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
If all the position required was enforcing the law and rendering judgments, it would be easy to find someone. Obviously, it must be said that there's political involvement. The decisions we make naturally have a political impact and affect people's reputations. We live in the age of social media, where everything is always exaggerated. We have to be careful what we say, among other things. It's easy to say something we think is legal and correct, but it could be taken the wrong way.
I think that's probably one reason why people are reluctant to take on this position. I, for one, have always held very controversial positions. So it's something I'm used to; I don't have a problem with it.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
That's a very good thing.
Throughout your career, you have maintained a good professional reputation. You have always gone by the book and worked within the legal framework at hand.
Do you think it's possible to be a good public servant and retain your own political views, while keeping them separate from your work to make fair and impartial decisions?
4:05 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I believe so. I used to do that as a judge.
In this case, I was appointed for only six months. I'll leave my personal views at the door and focus on the cases at hand. Whatever my personal views are, I have to deal with the issues entrusted to me and consider the consequences of my decisions for those individuals, not for me personally, without taking my political views into account.
4:05 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I do it every day, but it's not easy. From time to time, I'm tempted to mix the two, but that's not allowed. We always need to be mindful of that.
As a judge, I rendered a number of judgments and I had to think about the impact my personal views might or might not have. I don't believe they got in the way. When a judge is faced with that, they ask for a colleague's opinion. They can read the colleague's judgment and ask for their personal opinion as to whether everything's been done right or whether something is questionable. After a while, it becomes automatic. You leave all your personal views at the door to focus on what's in front of you.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Greg Fergus Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
I completely agree with you, Mr. von Finckenstein. I feel you've demonstrated that throughout your career. I have very high expectations, but I know that you will continue to do that. I think it's a good thing that all members of this committee recognize it's possible to do this fairly and impartially. I truly believe that it's required for the position you're taking up.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Fergus.
Thank you, Commissioner.
We're going to return to Mr. Green.
Mr. Green, you have six minutes. Go ahead.
4:05 p.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
To my committee members, welcome back to committee. I'm looking forward to getting back to work.
We're happy to have this very important position filled, even if only on an interim basis. As my colleagues have reflected, your CV is exemplary. I look forward to your continuing the good work in your public service that you've done for decades. Your resumé certainly speaks for itself.
In your opening remarks, you noted the issue of the need for trust, transparency and accountability. I think, without reflection on your personal opinions, it goes without saying that we are in a hyperpartisan, extreme moment in history right now. Your transition into this position is going to be integral to the work of the government by helping us continue to restore the trust of the general public and to ensure that, without favour and without target, any elected official within this House is held accountable for their actions.
Given that this position has been vacant for some time, what are your priorities in the first couple of weeks of your mandate?
4:10 p.m.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First is to get rid of the backlog, and I've done some of that.
For instance, as you know, ministers and secretaries of state, to be appointed as reporting office-holders, often have to put things in a blind trust. They hire a lawyer, and the lawyer sets up the blind trust. He sends it to us, and we look at it. We say, “Yes, that's fine” or “Change this”, and then it's done. Then the lawyer gives a bill of $20,000 or something like that. What you do is that you send it to me, and I send it over to the department and say, “Here, this man, as required by the Conflict of Interest Act, had to put this in trust. This is the cost. Please reimburse him”, and they do.
The act says that the commissioner sends it to the department. As a result, god knows how many of these things were waiting in my office. It's very frustrating. On the second day I came in, I said, “This is ridiculous. This is a post office function.” I delegated these to someone else to get them out, and I can tell you that today, the vast majority of them have gone out.