Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 16th, 2023

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

There's also a bit of a culture change. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, both on September 18 and today, I think it's clear that it's not just the application of the act and mechanically making sure that everything...but keeping the overall purpose in mind. What are we trying to do? We're trying to avoid conflicts of interest. We're trying to restore trust in the system. We want to make it workable.

On the question I was just asked about government, we're moving from one government entity to another. It's the perfect example of something that's just annoying to people and doesn't.... You look at the end result of what the conflict and the ethical problems are. There are none. Okay, then. Let's not do it.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

I'll go to Mr. Dion.

The annual report states that in 2022 and 2023, 83% of reporting public office holders submitted the information required by the initial compliance process on time. There were more than 1,400 items for all regulatees posted in the public registry. There was everything from the declaration of assets, etc....

Are these numbers consistent? Do you think this has improved or gotten worse over the years?

[Mario Dion]

They fluctuate from time to time, but there's no marked change. We have 83% of people who did it on time and 17% who didn't. It's pretty complicated.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Mr. Villemure, you have two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I intend to use my two and a half minutes this time.

Earlier, we were talking about leaders setting the tone. Could you tell me whether or not there's an ethical culture in the upper echelons of government?

[Mario Dion]

I think so. The work began a long time ago. The Tait report, for instance, which dates back to 1996 or 1997, paved the way. A lot of time has been devoted to training, particularly for deputy ministers and assistant deputy ministers. The situation is much better than it was 25 years ago, but there is still a long way to go to make it even better. It'll never be perfect, anyway.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

No.

So it would be fair to say that the culture is relatively ethical, even if there are shortcomings on the part of a few.

[Mario Dion]

There's also the phenomenon that a few bad apples can get into any group.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

There may even be some among the leaders.

[Mario Dion]

That's right.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Now that you're free to express your opinions, what recommendations would you make, beyond the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons, to improve the level of ethics and trust in the government?

[Mario Dion]

The obligation to respond to a commissioner's report could be a possibility, as is the case for parliamentary committee reports. They make recommendations, as you did with the access to information systems, and the government has an obligation to provide a response within 90 days, five months, or whatever the time frame is. There could be the same obligation for the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner's reports on certain breaches, so that the government can say whether it accepts or rejects the recommendations. That would be helpful, because there is no feedback right now.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

There's the issue of sanctions, which we were discussing earlier, and the issue of feedback, which we're discussing now.

[Mario Dion]

Feedback should be an obligation. There isn't any right now.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Okay.

Earlier, you said that the act and the code didn't provide for the leaders to become their own judges, so to speak. It's funny; I hadn't thought of it that way. I honestly didn't see a situation like this coming either.

What could be done about this?

[Mario Dion]

I have no idea.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It's kind of unheard of.

[Mario Dion]

Yes. This is increasingly the case in many areas.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Indeed, the world is changing rapidly.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure.

Next, we're going to go to Mr. Green for two and half minutes.

Go ahead, Matt.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Dion, carrying on with that, I think it's very important that any regime, particularly ones that are, I want to say, quasi-judicial and, certainly, fundamental to the democratic institutions that we serve.... I think the point you raised about the obligation to participate in the process and to co-operate in the process is an important one.

What could you point to as being the strongest of recommendations to ensure adherence to that? It seems like there is no deterrence and no downside for the government in not co-operating with your investigations.

[Mario Dion]

If you heard me say we did not get co-operation, I don't know where that came from, because we consistently received good co-operation from those who were under investigation throughout my five years. There's no question about that.

It's not about co-operation; it's about what happens after the conclusion has been reached and the report is published. The absence of feedback and visible consequences.... Maybe there are important consequences that we don't see or know about. It's not impossible. That's what I think undermines the credibility of the regime.

After the report is tabled—poof—there is trouble for a few hours or days, and then it's over. It's finished. It disappears.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, sir.

Perhaps on my end there is something that was lost in my interpretation or my understanding of what was said, but I think the spirit is there, which is ultimately what happens after you conclude the reports.

Could you perhaps reflect on comparators, given your experience in the public service, in jurisdictions around the world that do have a higher level of compliance with orders that are made in terms of penalties or some types of accountability measures?

[Mario Dion]

We did a review of this nature while I was there. We provided that to the predecessor committee, or maybe this one. I'm not sure which legislature it was, but we did give this committee a table of various jurisdictions and various consequences. I must admit I have forgotten.

It's not cut and dried, as you say in English. It varies greatly among jurisdictions; however, there is one universal reality. He who investigates does not impose penalties. It's somebody else who has to read the conclusion and decide whether there should be any consequences and, if so, what they should be.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It is very important testimony today. Thank you for taking time to be here and to support this committee.

To the commissioner, Mr. von Finckenstein, thank you again for your candour and the straightness in your answers.

I appreciate you both.