Evidence of meeting #84 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was code.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
How many members of the Liberal government did you find guilty of breaking our ethics act?
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I never counted them, to tell you the truth. I've heard references to four or five, but I never actually.... I don't know whether it was four or five.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay, let's go through them.
First, we had the Prime Minister in “The Trudeau Report”. That was with respect to the trip to Bells Cay.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Yes. It's Mary Dawson's report, not mine, but it's still on the list.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
We're still going to count them as part of this government, even under the previous commissioner. It's the same Prime Minister.
The “Trudeau II Report” was with respect to the SNC-Lavalin scandal again.
We had the then fisheries minister, I believe, Dominic LeBlanc, with the “LeBlanc Report”, or “clam scam”, as I think it was called.
We had the “Ng Report”. That was the contract to a bestie of the small business minister.
Then we have the “Fergus Report”.
We had five instances with four individuals, and though we covered two commissioners, we had—
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
There was also the “Morneau Report”. You forgot that.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Oh, how could I forget? Just like one might forget a French villa, I forgot the “Morneau Report”.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
That is complete. I think it's complete.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay.
Well, certainly we've heard about all the reports that have been issued under your tenure. I guess we'll see if any of that ethics training is taken up on, and if there's an arrest for the breaches of our ethics laws.
What do you think the continued breaches of ethics laws did, over your term, to Canadians' confidence in our institutions? Do you think that repeated offences or multiple breaches by one government instill confidence by Canadians in the system?
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
They obviously don't. There is no other possible answer.
It has a cumulative effect. It's taking place also around other situations, in other spheres of political life, if you wish. The surveys are clear. Overall, confidence has gone down in the last—
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
We see the erosion of Canadians' confidence. They would expect, traditionally, ministerial accountability.
These are the people who are covered by the act—ministers or parliamentary secretaries—but there are two cases in which we've seen the promotion of people who have reports named for them. Minister LeBlanc and Speaker Fergus have both received promotions, which, I would say, does not serve to bolster Canadians' confidence in their democratic institutions.
After the “Ng Report”, Minister Ng came before the committee and said she lacked training, that she lacked an understanding, and that's why she broke that ethics law. How much training do you think is required for someone who is elected to office and then is given a position that makes them a designated public office holder? How much training do you think is required for them to understand that giving a government contract to a friend would be unethical?
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I think an hour would be sufficient to cover that particular topic.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay.
How much time do I have left, Chair?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Well, I thank you very much, Commissioners, for being here.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Barrett.
We're now going to Ms. Khalid for six minutes.
Go ahead, please.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses.
If you don't mind, I'll go back to my questioning from the first hour for our witnesses there, about the five MPs who travelled to London on a very lavish trip that was sponsored by external entities.
As we discussed already, their flights, their hotels, the very oddly expensive Uber bills and the $6,000 dinners were paid for by Canadians for Affordable Energy, with the exception of the expenses for MP John Williamson, who, in 2016, founded the organization that paid for the other MPs. His travel to London was paid for by a Hungarian think tank.
Obviously, a lot of questions arise from this. Do you think this passes the sniff test, first and foremost, in terms of what an MP should logically be doing and accepting?
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I refer that to Mr. von Finckenstein, but also Monsieur Dion, if he has any comments.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
First of all, it caught me unaware. I don't know anything about the situation you're talking about. I'm sorry. I cannot answer the question.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
Nor do I. I don't recall the trip you're talking about. I don't know what year it may have taken place in. It was published, I guess, in the sponsored travel list published on March 31.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
It's also been in the media, so I'm quite surprised that people of your stature in your offices would not know of something like that.
Former Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, As an Individual
I've stopped reading those articles, because sponsored travel is perfectly acceptable under the code. That's what Parliament decided several years ago. Any criticism of sponsored travel is a waste of time, because it's declared perfectly acceptable in the code governing the conduct of MPs.
That's all I have to say about that.