Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 18th, 2023

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Can you appreciate for a moment the concern that I have about the contradiction between your opening remarks about the ability for the Chinese government...and your very clear refusal in terms of its access to your data and the fact that the Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States is in the process of an ongoing negotiation for a national security contract?

Clearly, the U.S. thinks this is a problem. Is that fair to say?

[David Lieber]

We're eager to address those concerns. We think the protocols that we've developed respond directly to the theoretical concerns that the U.S. government has raised.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

In the follow-up to the questions about Ireland’s data protection commissioner and the fine that was received of 345 million pounds, you addressed some of the things you've changed regarding that. I would like to ask you, are these policies in place for all users or only the ones based in the EU?

[David Lieber]

The policies vis-à-vis teenagers are in place for all our users.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

That completes our first round.

We will now begin the second round.

You have the floor for five minutes, Mr. Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the two witnesses for being here.

My questions are for both of them and pertain to consent for the publication of content.

People often use TikTok for promotional purposes. Artists use it for their art and people in business use it to promote their products. There are people who appear on TikTok involuntarily though because people use other people's videos and modify them without their consent. I was a victim of TikTok. I can tell you that it can be quite a surprise when they give you giant ears and make all kinds of things come out of your mouth.

If I had wanted to make a complaint or have that kind of video withdrawn, how would I have gone about that? Would I have been able to reach someone in my first language of French? Further, would someone in Canada have answered me? Would it have been someone from another country who might not be too bothered that Jacques Gourde is filing a complaint with TikTok?

[Steve de Eyre]

Thank you for the question. There are a few things in there I'd love to answer.

We do have a number of policies. We have our community guidelines. Those are public. They're on our website. They outline what is and isn't allowed on TikTok. That's what guides our content moderation. We have a team of over 40,000 safety professionals globally who work every day to moderate content and remove content that violates those guidelines.

For example, if something were to meet our guidelines for bullying, or if something were to meet our community guidelines for violative impersonation of, particularly, public officials...and there's copyright as well. We have intellectual property guidelines. Those could all be instances where that material would be removed. I can't speak to specific instances. I don't work on the trust and safety team. That is separate from the public policy team that I'm on, but I'm happy to follow up with those guidelines or if there's a specific instance that you want us to look into.

In terms of the language, the TikTok app user interface is available in a number of languages, including not just French but also a Canadian French setting. Any user can select that and the entire app and interface will be in Canadian French.

The moderators we have, as I said, are around the world. We do have content moderators in Canada. We have a team across North America and around the world who work 24-7, 365 days a year, to ensure the security of our platform.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Along the same lines, let's talk about the protection of minors. High school students who are 12, 13, 14 or 15 years of age often take videos of other people, and young people end up on TikTok through no fault of their own.

You talked about guidelines and protection earlier. What about when there are abuses? I am thinking about people who have not consented to being in a video. They might appear in videos that are shared around the world and feel ridiculed. This is a form of harassment, it is discriminatory and can be harmful to a young person's development.

Do you have any protection measures? Do you even have redress measures if a young person causes irreparable harm?

[Steve de Eyre]

Again, if it were to be the situation where there was ridicule of or discrimination against an individual, whoever it was in the video, that would violate our community guidelines. Any user could report that video. We would review it, and we would remove it.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Can you give the committee any statistics on the removal of videos that prove TikTok's good faith as to the protection of privacy?

If you cannot do so today, could you provide that later on?

[Steve de Eyre]

Of course, I'd be happy to share a number of items, including our community guidelines enforcement report that I mentioned earlier. I do have some of the data, if you'll allow me.

In the second quarter of 2023, 885 videos that were uploaded in Canada were removed for being violative of our guidelines. It sounds like a lot of videos, but it's actually less than 1% of the entire volume, and that's a consistent average we see globally. We removed 90% of those videos proactively. That means we didn't wait to get a report. We do rely on user reports; they're very valuable. We were able to identify 90% of those violative videos and to remove them before a report even came in.

I'd be happy to follow up with the entire report. It's a very rich data report. You can download it as a CSV. I'm happy to make sure you have that information.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Gourde.

Thank you, Steve.

We are going to go to Mr. Bains now for five minutes

Go ahead, sir.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll be sharing some time with my colleague Ms. Damoff.

Mr. de Eyre, my first question is for you.

In his statements before Congress, the CEO of TikTok, Mr. Shou Chew said, “we do not collect precise GPS data at this point.”

However, according to TikTok's privacy statement:

Advertisers, measurement and other partners share information with us about you and the actions you have taken outside of the Platform, such as your activities on other websites and apps or in stores, including the products or services you purchased, online or in person. These partners also share information with us, such as mobile identifiers for advertising....

Can you inform the committee what the difference is between collecting precise GPS data and receiving “mobile identifiers” from third parties?

[David Lieber]

I'm happy to answer that question.

It is true that we do not collect precise location information about our users. We do collect approximate location, often based on the user's IP address. What we can do is identify that someone may be in a particular province or city, but we wouldn't be able to identify, with any precision, where an individual was located. We wouldn't be able, for example, to deliver a pizza to somebody's house based on the location information we have.

The part of our privacy policy that I believe you are alluding to discusses how data may be shared from advertising partners that we work with. Sometimes advertisers launch campaigns with TikTok, and they want to understand, for example, when a user has clicked on an advertisement, if they've put something into a shopping cart, or if they've downloaded an app. Oftentimes, mobile identifiers are the ways that we can match up activity between a TikTok user and an action they may have taken on an advertiser's website.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

The third parties do have access to these identifiers, and they are shared.

[David Lieber]

They have access just for the purpose of understanding, for example, how their advertising campaigns worked and whether they were successful: how many app downloads or installs occurred, how many people looked at an ad or how many people may have purchased a good. That's the type of data they're often interested in, and it's more in an aggregated fashion.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. I'm just going to follow up with a different question.

According to Reuters:

ByteDance Technology sold a 1% stake in an...deal to WangTouZhongWen (Beijing) Technology, which is owned by three state entities [according to] Tianyancha, an online database of China's corporate records.

The deal also allowed the Chinese government to appoint a board director at Beijing ByteDance....

Why would a 1% stakeholder merit a seat on the board?

That question is to you, Mr. de Eyre.

[Steve de Eyre]

Sure, I'd be happy to respond to that and to clarify that. There's been some misinformation around that.

You are correct. There is a Chinese operating entity that's specifically for the Chinese market where that was the case, and my understanding is that's a local law. That entity has nothing to do with TikTok and has no oversight over TikTok. Those employees cannot access TikTok user data, and it is not above TikTok in the org chart.

My understanding is that it is required, and it's for things like content licensing and media licensing.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ms. Damoff, you have one minute exactly.

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I'm timing myself.

Thank you for being here.

I know Cheekbone. I'm wearing it right now, actually.

When you talk about the information that you're able to obtain from people, it reminds me of when we were studying the national security framework, and somebody said, “Oh, it's just a return address on an envelope.” If young teenagers are doing certain searches, maybe they have self-esteem issues or they're overweight, you can tell all of that from what they're doing online, and then things get targeted to them.

I know you're on the board of MediaSmarts, so you must care about this stuff a lot, but what are you doing in your company to make sure that young people are being protected online, because it's a lot more than just an email address,. A a 15-year-old who is having self-esteem issues....

I'll let you go. You only have a few seconds.

[Steve de Eyre]

Maybe I can follow up with some more information on that, but thank you for pointing out MediaSmarts. We're very proud to be partners with them, and I'm proud of the work that I get to do with them personally.

We have a number of settings that we have put in place, such as education and advocacy campaigns. We also provide links. If you search for a certain topic that might be related to mental health or well-being, a button will come up in the search results and will direct you to resources like Kids Help Phone or Tel-jeunes, or others that may be able to provide that help.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You know you had 30 seconds there, but it was an important response. One of the tough parts about this job, which I don't like, is that I have to cut people off.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Since I have just two and a half minutes, I will be quick.

Mr. de Eyre, would you agree that the use of social media such as TikTok is a type of addiction?