Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 18th, 2023

[Steve de Eyre]

There's a lot of research out there on the appropriate amount of time for social media use, particularly for young people. That is something they should be discussing with their parents or guardians. It may be different for every family.

We take screen time use very seriously. As I mentioned, we have a default 60-minute screen time limit that applies to all users under 18. If you spend time on TikTok after a certain hour, every once in a while a video will come up suggesting that you take a break.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

If you 18 or over, the addiction can nevertheless be real.

[Steve de Eyre]

We think this is an issue that.... Yes, it's something that all people, regardless of their age, should talk about. It's not something that's unique to TikTok. It's an industry challenge.

There's a role for industry, government, civil society and non-profits to figure out how to address this. This is something that Canadians do care about. We care about it. We're trying to work here to find ways to ensure that people who love our product, who love using TikTok, can do it in a healthy way.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Do you think the use of social media such as TikTok, among others, is a kind of manipulation?

[Steve de Eyre]

No, I would disagree with that characterization. We recommend videos to users based on what we think they're going to like and identify videos that we think they would like. David mentioned the town that you're in. Local content and locality of content is something that's important for TikTok, and somewhat unique to TikTok.

If you're in Quebec, you will get more Quebec-based creators recommended to you, and they're able to be discovered. There's actually a great small business in Trois-Rivières called Bonbons Mélangés. It is an ice cream and candy shop. It only opened in May, and the business has exploded. Because of the interest, people are driving from all over the province to go there to meet the owner, Annie, because of what they see on TikTok.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It is nonetheless an algorithm that thinks we like something.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Can you provide a quick response, please?

Sorry, but can you ask the question again?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You said the algorithm thinks you will like something. So decisions are made by something other than the user.

[Steve de Eyre]

The decisions are made and presented to users, and then we can see how.... Depending on how they interact with it, it will present a broad range of choices to them. If they watch a whole video, if they like it, if they interact positively with it, it will recommend more videos, not exclusively, but that will give it a signal of the type of content they like.

I, for example, get a lot of parenting humour. I get a lot of—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, Mr. de Eyre. We went over on that one.

It sounds like a road trip to Trois-Rivières is coming up for some ice cream.

Mr. Green, I'm going to give you three minutes, because of Mr. Villemure's three minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much. It's going to give me the opportunity to return to a very important question.

Mr. Lieber, I want you to think carefully about the next question I'm about to ask before you answer it.

I want to begin by referencing “Home Ice Advantage: Securing Data Sovereignty for Canadians on Social Media”, which is dated November 2020.

It states:

TikTok's Privacy Policy states that they store and transfer user data “in Singapore or in the United States, outside of the country where [users] live.”

However, it goes on:

Prior to 2019, TikTok's Privacy Policy stated: “We will also share your information with any member or affiliate of our group, in China, for the purposes set out above...” This provision has since been updated with: “We may share your information with a parent, subsidiary, or other affiliate of our corporate group.”

Based on the questions I asked you, that is a marked departure from the characterization and framing you made about where and how information is shared.

I would like for you now to comment on whether or not you may share information with your parent companies or subsidiaries in China.

[David Lieber]

Thank you for that question.

I believe the question you asked before was about storage. We do have a provision in our privacy policy that talks about sharing within our corporate group. There are functions that are performed by other aspects of our corporate family, maybe for something such as troubleshooting an account or—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Sir, I wasn't talking about storage. That wasn't the context. The Hansard will reflect that.

I was talking about sharing information with the Chinese government. You stated that is not the case.

It's not about storage. Do you have a parent company in China that has access to user data, yes or no?

[David Lieber]

Yes. There are instances where other—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Is that Chinese company—your parent company—also regulated under Chinese state national law, such that should the Chinese government want to access their information, third party to you, they could do that, sir? Give me a yes or no.

[David Lieber]

I'm not an expert in Chinese law, but what I can speak to—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You should be, if you're a subsidiary of a company related to China, sir.

[David Lieber]

The Chinese government has not asserted any rights over TikTok's user data.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's not what I asked.

I want you to state whether or not your parent company is subject to the Chinese Communist Party's laws. Is it yes or no?

[David Lieber]

The parent company has subsidiaries that are in all parts of the world. Those parts of the world where there aren't Chinese users may have jurisdictional arguments that the Chinese law doesn't apply. I'm not going to opine on the application of Chinese law in each of those subsidiaries.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you share information with your parent company? Do you sell information? Do you sell it to third parties, yes or no?

[David Lieber]

We do not sell information—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you share information?

[David Lieber]

With third parties, we do, as described in our privacy policy.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.