Evidence of meeting #9 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
With that, we'll go to Monsieur Villemure for two and a half minutes.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Good morning, Mr. Chair. I would like to introduce a motion that will be sent to all participants right away.
Let me explain the context. In our meeting on February 17, 2022, Mr. Khan, from BlueDot told us this:We have two data suppliers that provide us with data. In our agreements with those suppliers, we have contractual obligations that, if we do make any public statements, we would just need to seek their permission first before making any announcement.
The motion reads as follows:That the committee request BlueDot Inc. to file the names of its data providers by Monday, March 7, 2022, and that the analysts attach this information to the report of this study.
Versions are available in French and English.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
The motion is in order, because it is relevant to our present study.
We now have a motion before us. We have witnesses, and we like to make sure that we can have witness testimony. Are there any speakers to the motion, or may we put the motion to a vote?
It looks like Ms. Khalid wishes to speak to the motion.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I move to adjourn debate on this motion.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Okay.
The motion to adjourn debate is not debatable. That will go straight to a vote.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
We can discuss the motion at subcommittee, if that's okay.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Well, that's correct. We can discuss the motion in subcommittee, but a motion to adjourn debate has been moved.
We will go to a vote on adjourning debate on the motion.
Go ahead with the vote, Madam Clerk.
February 28th, 2022 / 11:50 a.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Nancy Vohl
Thank you very much.
The vote is on the motion to adjourn debate on the motion by Mr. Villemure.
The vote result is five-five, Mr. Chair.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
I vote to adjourn debate. We will deal with this in subcommittee.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
With that, we will continue with Monsieur Villemure.
You have the floor.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Geist, we are told that Telus' Mobility for Good program uses data for purposes that are socially beneficial.
Do you believe that this excuses Telus from obtaining—and I will be generous here—some basic form of consent from the users?
11:55 a.m.
Professor of Law, University of Ottawa and Canada Research Chair in Internet and e-Commerce Law, As an Individual
The kind of consent required under the law does vary depending on the sensitivity of the information and the like. The fact that it's “for good” isn't really the factor that we would think about. We would think about the sensitivity of the data. We would think about whether or not the consent was informed and the like. The fact that this is for good purposes, in this case obviously in the context of public health and a pandemic, isn't one of the core questions we'd typically be thinking about in terms of the standard of consent.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you very much.
In summary, adding the words “for good” does not really amount to a criterion for evaluating the appropriateness or the extent of any consent.
11:55 a.m.
Professor of Law, University of Ottawa and Canada Research Chair in Internet and e-Commerce Law, As an Individual
No. I don't think it is.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON
Thank you very much.
Mr. Charbonneau, as you were interrupted earlier when you were making your comments, I'm going to let you continue what you were saying about trust.
11:55 a.m.
Former Quebec Parliamentarian and Professional Speaker on Ethics, As an Individual
I was saying that trust is one of the pillars of a real democracy. A social contract connects the public with the political leaders, the elected representatives. That trust is fundamental. The more it's undermined, the more people feel entitled to do what they want.
The behaviour we have seen in recent weeks in Canada is the reflection of a problem of trust. If we want solidarity in society and we want people to observe the laws and the regulations, even though they may not like them, there has to be a very strong bond of trust between the people and their political leaders.
Without that trust, how do we plan to maintain people's allegiance to political institutions?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Thank you.
We now have Mr. Green for two minutes, and then we will finish it out with Mr. Bezan and Ms. Hepfner.
Go ahead, Mr. Green, for two and a half minutes.
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you.
I have to name it. It's not lost on me that in a conversation around transparency, accountability and trust, a simple request for additional information was met with a procedural attempt to shut down additional information. I just want to say—
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
Ms. Khalid has raised a point of order. I'll ask her to immediately state which practice and procedure of committee is not being followed.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Iqra Khalid Liberal Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON
I question the relevance of this argument. We're debating—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
11:55 a.m.
NDP
Matthew Green NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I have limited time. The members of the governing side have ample opportunity to put forward the points of their debate. I invite them to do so in their own time.
I do have my two minutes. I will speak to the nature of this committee and my hope that when we're dealing with these issues, we can actually have open and public and transparent debates around the information that is provided both to the committee and to Canadians. That is part of the core of the problem in the functioning of this government, and one I'm going to continue to name. I'm just going to put on notice that as I see these procedural tricks, attempts to shut down information and attempts to filibuster, I will name it each and every time, notwithstanding the fact that I have my own motion that's going to be requesting more information. I put it on oral notice.
I ask members of this committee that we allow the fullness of the debate to happen in the public sphere, without this kind of instinct to constantly shut it down. It's a frustration I've had in my very short time here on the Hill, and one that I want to take this time to note.
Mr. Charbonneau, I did not get a chance to hear from you on those two questions. Given your learned experience in the National Assembly of Quebec, if you do have comments on things that were done particular to your experience in Quebec or in your time afterwards that you think would improve our Privacy Act or PIPEDA, I would ask that you please do submit them in writing. All of the evidence that is submitted at committee, as both you gentlemen would know, does become part of the study and hopefully will become part of the recommendations.
Thank you.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Pat Kelly
With that, we will go to Mr. Bezan.
We are a little bit behind. I'm going to cut the last two down to four minutes each.
Go ahead, Mr. Bezan.