Evidence of meeting #90 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was allegations.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Simon Kennedy  Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Nancy Vohl

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm going to call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting no. 90 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, October 18, 2023, the committee is commencing its study of allegations related to governance and management of contributions by Sustainable Development Technology Canada.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely by using the Zoom application.

Just before the meeting starts, I have a couple of comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

First, I'd like to remind all members and witnesses that care must be taken with regard to the earpieces for interpretation. Please be mindful not to place your earpiece near the microphone, as this can result in a feedback loop that may cause acoustic shock and, in turn, injury to the interpreters.

Comments between members should be addressed through the chair.

With that, I'd now like to welcome our witnesses today.

From the Department of Industry, we have the Honourable François-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry; and Mr. Simon Kennedy, deputy minister.

Welcome, gentlemen, to the committee.

Minister, you have five minutes to address the committee. Go ahead, please.

November 6th, 2023 / 3:50 p.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Innovation

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to members of the committee for inviting me in to be the first one to address this.

As you know, earlier this year, my department was made aware of allegations concerning Sustainable Development Technologies Canada, commonly known as SDTC. Let me be clear: I expect all organizations to which we provide public funding to act with diligence, care and integrity in all aspects of their work.

In the spirit of this, I asked my department to immediately conduct a fact-finding exercise with an impartial third party, Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton. The fact-finding report found no clear evidence of wilful misconduct, but did identify a number of instances in which STDC was not in full compliance with its contribution agreement. There were a number of “inconsistencies and opportunities for improvement”.

Let's be clear. Our government will always hold all organizations that receive public funds to the highest standards.

That is why we demanded that SDTC take additional corrective measures in response to the investigation report that was published. Those measures include an action plan, which was sent to management, for addressing the problems identified in the report. I expect that the action plan will be implemented no later than December 31 of this year. In addition, as a precautionary measure, we have temporarily suspended the funding of all new projects until those corrective measures are in place.

There have also been allegations regarding human resources management practices. Given SDTC's independent status, Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton was unable to examine the issue directly in the course of its analysis.

In the course of its work, however, RCGT—Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton—did observe what appeared to be inconsistencies and areas for improvement in human resources practices at STDC. Of note are allegations that have recently come to my attention that there might be additional former employees who may wish to provide evidence of inappropriate behaviour but feel that they cannot do so without exposing themselves to liability. We will not allow these concerns to go unanswered.

My department cannot unilaterally take on this task. The Canada Foundation for Sustainable Development Technology Act establishes STDC as an arm's-length organization. The responsibility for human resources falls with the independent board of directors.

That is why my department has requested that SDTC take the necessary steps to conduct an in‑depth review of the allegations regarding its management of human resources. That review will be directed by an independent law firm, which will subsequently inform me of its findings.

SDTC has agreed to allow current and former employees to freely speak to this third party independent law firm without violating any applicable settlement agreements or non-disclosure agreements.

The allegations of mismanagement of public funds are serious. It is important that we take prompt action in accordance with the principles of due diligence and procedural fairness. We must base our actions on facts.

It is integral that due process and due diligence continue to guide these next steps. I also remain fully committed to exploring these allegations.

In addition to ISED's efforts, Mr. Chair, we have been working closely with the Office of the Auditor General on this matter for a number of weeks. I welcome the Auditor General of Canada's decision to conduct an audit, and my department will co-operate fully with her work.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, I am confident that we have taken all appropriate actions with the implementation of corrective measures, the pending independent review of SDTC human resources management, and the Auditor General of Canada audit. Let me be clear: I am prepared to take any further action as required under the circumstances.

With that, Mr. Chair, I'm happy to answer questions from my esteemed colleagues.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Minister.

As with previous interventions—we're kind of old school around here—things don't have to go through the chair. If members want to direct their questions directly to the minister, I'll accept that.

The other thing that I'm going to suggest, as well, is that we keep it relevant to the discussion at hand. The fewer interruptions, the better.

Members have six minutes in the first round. They're allowed to use that time in whatever way they choose, so I'm going to enforce that.

Minister, thank you again.

Mr. Barrett, you have six minutes. Go ahead, please.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, under section 10 of the act you have the power to fire the chair and the board. You just said in your opening statement that you'd taken all reasonable steps.

I haven't heard yet that you've fired anyone. Who have you fired?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I work on the basis of evidence. I'm a lawyer. I would certainly caution members of this committee to apply due process when they're looking at allegations. That's why, the moment I was made aware of allegations, we had a third party come to do a full investigation and report back to me.

In addition to that, now there will be a third party law firm to which a whistle-blower can go to report findings.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Do you believe the whistle-blowers, Minister? Your department has been briefed at length. The PCO has been briefed at length. It's a very simple question: Do you believe them, yes or no?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I believe in the evidence that I received. The evidence that I have so far is contained in the report, and you have a copy. That's the evidence I have in front of me today.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Will you condemn Sustainable Development Technology Canada for saying that the whistle-blowers are lying?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I will work—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

You said that there should be due process. They've already determined that what the whistle-blowers are saying, in their opinion, is a lie. Do you think that's appropriate of SDTC to say?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I think you'll have the opportunity to ask that question of the chair and of the CEO of the company. I'll let them speak for themselves.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

With all due respect, I'm asking you. You're the minister. You're responsible.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

No. I think the question is for the CEO and the board, if they said that.

What I'm saying is that, as minister, I work under the terms and conditions of the contribution agreement, which you've seen. I work on the basis of the law that created SDTC—

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

That's right, and that law gives you the power to appoint both the chair and the members of the board. You haven't exercised the ability to fire them. Their terms are based on good behaviour.

I have another question: Are you going to guarantee the whistle-blowers—

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Let me just say that it's for cause, Mr. Barrett. They can be terminated for cause.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Their term is for good behaviour. What we've heard, sir, is.... Their term is for good behaviour. They're appointed, and it's based on the minister's decision. That's you.

Are you going to guarantee the whistle-blowers the same level of protection that is offered to public servants?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

The law specifically...and it's not me. As you will know, if you go back into the act, those employees are not part of the public service of Canada, sir. That's not me. That's the law that Parliament adopted at the time.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

I could take some time to offer you some suggestions that would include appointing a chair and appointing members of the board who would guarantee the protection of whistle-blowers who have identified gross mismanagement and misconduct when we're talking about more than $100 million in funding.

Will you admit today that SDTC has seen rampant corruption through conflicts of interest and through funding ineligible companies and projects? You talked about the RCGT report. That's listed in there. Will you confirm that you agree with that finding?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I find that you're making a number of assumptions. As a lawyer, I would caution you not to do that.

The only evidence that exists on the record today is in the Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton report. That's the only evidence that exists today.

If you're in possession of further evidence, I welcome you to deliver that to me. Then we can have a fact-finding exercise.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Minister, in fact, you're in possession of the same information that I am. It's more than 300 pages that the whistle-blowers gave to PCO and furnished your department with.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I am not in possession of that document. What I'm saying I'm in possession of is the report.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

While I'm asking my next question, you should turn to your officials and ask if this is wilful blindness that we're seeing, because they've been furnished with the information. In fact, we have members of your department, in recordings that have been released to the public, saying that they've seen the information and that they don't have confidence in the board of directors.

Let's be clear: I'm not here for your legal opinion. You're offering me legal advice. I don't need your legal cautions. What I want to know is the date on which you learned of the whistle-blower allegations about SDTC—just the date, sir.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

March 5.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

After the government learned—after you learned—of Annette Verschuren's network of conflicts of interest and involvement in funding ineligible projects, did she receive any taxpayer dollars? Yes or no?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I don't understand the question. What I can tell you is that on March 5.... If you want me to answer.... I know you have another question, but let me answer.