Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[Peter Madou]

We provide advice to government on foreign interference in the general sense. I'm not aware of us advising, specifically, on this social media platform.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm still struck that this one social media platform, given all of the controversies around all of the other ones, was targeted. It feels like it was a political decision, not an evidence-based decision. That's my opinion. It's not yours.

In terms of threats, you have the mandate to investigate threats to national security. How often does CSIS investigate activities on social media platforms as they relate to threats to national security, Mr. Madou?

[Peter Madou]

We investigate threat actors; we don't investigate social media platforms. Depending on how threat actors are evolving, we may have insight into what goes on a platform, but otherwise we investigate actors.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How often do you detect a presence of foreign interference services on social media platforms?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, Mr. Madou. If you could just speak a little bit closer to the microphone, it would help the interpreters.

Thank you. Go ahead.

[Peter Madou]

Thank you.

Can you just repeat the question?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How often does CSIS detect a presence of foreign interference services or actors on social media platforms?

[Peter Madou]

I think detecting counter-narratives on social media platforms may be a common occurrence, but to link them specifically to a hostile threat actor is a bit more complex. I'm not sure how often that happens. We do know that threat actors do that—such as the PRC, Russia, or other hostile state actors, as my colleague mentioned—but I don't have a specific number for you.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Green.

Mr. Kurek, you have three minutes, please. Go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to our witnesses for being here.

In the fallout of the October 7 attack on Israeli citizens, there was information shared by a terrorist organization that the Prime Minister, the foreign affairs minister, other members of the government, and other political parties shared: that the IDF had bombed a hospital. This spread rapid-fire on social media yet was deemed very quickly to be categorically false. Our Five Eyes allies knew that this was misinformation, but our government refused to retract it. That is an example.

Ms. Henderson, can you share how that sort of action of the government would contribute to the erosion of trust, and share some of the challenges associated with social media and the influence that foreign states could have over the Canadian population?

[Cherie Henderson]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me. I'm sorry.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

When the Prime Minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs refused to retract misinformation, they contributed to misinformation that spread rapidly online. I know it showed up in my feed, and it was forwarded to me by constituents as well.

When governments are slow to respond to combat misinformation, does that contribute to foreign state actors and the influence they may have over Canadians?

[Cherie Henderson]

How I would answer that would be to say that, in any situation, any foreign threat actor is always monitoring everything that's going on within a country of interest. They will pick up on any little piece of information, and they can magnify that into misinformation or disinformation in order to achieve their goal. They will continue to magnify that until they feel that the damage is done.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that. Certainly, the need to combat misinformation is essential.

There's a disconnect in what TikTok has shared with this committee between the privacy settings that may be present on a phone and the grey side of social media where there may be unknown information that is collected.

In the 45 seconds I have left, I'm wondering, Ms. Henderson, if you can comment on how we can reconcile the disconnect that exists between what the social media companies are saying versus what we're hearing today and what has been reported in the media.

[Cherie Henderson]

The way I'm going to answer that is to indicate that there is always going to be, as you noted, a grey area. There is the policy and what the social media is collecting and engaging intentionally, such as—as they indicated—email addresses. However, as Mr. Khoury indicated earlier, it's not only the email address that you signed up with; everything else you are doing as an individual on that site is also data that can be collected. That's what we call, in many cases, big data. They will scrape all that big data off, and then they can do their data crunching.

That is where some of the danger comes in. That's where they can start to find the trends in the ways they can do the interference and the influence.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Ms. Henderson.

Thank you, Mr. Kurek.

Mr. Kelloway, you have three minutes to close things off.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Could I share my time with Pam Damoff, please, for the first 30 seconds?

[Pam Damoff, Liberal, Oakville North—Burlington, ON]

I just need a few seconds. I wanted to clarify something that Mr. Kurek said.

The Canadian government reviewed the information on the hospital bombing on its own. The Prime Minister, quite emphatically, in the House of Commons and elsewhere, confirmed that it was not Israel that bombed the hospital. In fact, I remember the Conservative colleagues standing up and applauding when he said that in the House.

I want to make sure the record reflects that we did do our own investigation, Chair. We did, in fact, call out the misinformation.

I will turn it over to Mr. Kelloway.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I have a point of order.

Chair, I will note that this was five days after the information was shared.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead, Mr. Kelloway. Thank you.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, from one working-class person to another—I have to keep that trend going.

I really appreciate the work you do. I can't imagine the work that you do. I have so many questions, but in the period of time I have I couldn't possibly do it justice.

One particular item that keeps coming up is education. As an educator, I would love to unpack what that truly means. As you mentioned, the toothpaste may be out of the toothpaste container, but what do we do?

I'm going to try to crystallize it down to one basic thing. In terms of the radicalization of youth via TikTok or other platforms by foreign entities, can you drill down for us? Can you try to quantify how serious that is, to the best of your ability?

This is for any one of you or all three.

[Cherie Henderson]

I think it's a very serious problem.

These aren't going to be hostile states; these are hostile terrorist organizations. These individuals will be sitting in another country. They are out there monitoring social media, creating their own websites and looking for youth. They are looking for those individuals who perhaps are on their own, sitting in their room on their computer exploring and trying to answer questions. They are very vulnerable. Then those individuals pick up and they build a relationship.

Traditionally, in the espionage world, we used to call that creating a honey pot. You attract these individuals to come to you. That's what they do. Once they have these individuals, they continue to work on them. They continue to give them media pictures. They build that extremist ideology and they mould that young mind.

That's what I'm very worried about, because I think we have a lot of very vulnerable youth at this time and a lot of very hostile actors who are willing to take advantage of those children.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Do I have much time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I think we can end on that point, if that's okay, Mr. Kelloway. I think it was a good point to make.