Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 20th, 2023

[Sami Khoury]

In my role as the head of the cyber centre, I'm here to share with you the threat landscape as we see it. That threat landscape is informed from a number of sources. Some of them are public sources and some of them are classified sources. In a sense, whenever we find something, we will distill it down and we will put it out there, regardless of what the source is.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay.

Were you able to watch the committee meeting on October 18, when representatives from TikTok testified? If so, what did you think of their testimony? They felt they were being unfairly targeted. Did you find their testimony persuasive in relation to security, privacy and data concerns? Did you have any concerns about their use of information sharing between third parties?

[Sami Khoury]

Unfortunately, I did not watch the testimony on the date you indicated.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Okay. We asked them several questions around third parties having access to information. They felt they were being unfairly targeted. Do you find that's a concern with someone like TikTok specifically and the ability of third parties to have shared information?

[Sami Khoury]

The concerns we have are these: Who has access to the data? Where does the data reside? How easy is it for the host nation to get access to the data? That is what we are asking. Everybody who uses a social media app should ask themselves those questions in order to be a better-informed user of social media. In the case of TikTok, if the data is hosted in China, that would be a concern, considering some of China's permissive laws for getting access to user data.

We want Canadians to ask those tough questions about security settings in order to be better-informed consumers.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Bains and Mr. Khoury.

Mr. Villemure, you have two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Henderson, earlier, you said that it was important to educate people about the potential risks posed by social media. However, the average person doesn't know the location of the servers hosting our data or what the risks are. The committee is somewhat better informed, but the general public is in the dark. So, how do we educate them?

[Cherie Henderson]

Thank you for this extremely important question.

I think education needs to happen at all levels.

Again, I'm not a policy person. I'm a mother, and I would like to make sure my kids get educated at schools, in community centres and across the board. We need to start to have that greater engagement, but that's me speaking as a mother, not as a security officer.

I think we need to have that education piece, absolutely. It's fundamentally important.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

You talked a great deal about foreign interference. Earlier, you said that you didn't want to target anyone in particular, but, in the minute and a half remaining, could you tell us what we, as a committee, should but don't already know about foreign interference?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

To whom are you putting your question, Mr. Villemure?

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I'm still talking to Ms. Henderson.

[Cherie Henderson]

Foreign interference is something we have been looking at in the service. I've been in the service for 32 years. From the day I started, we've been investigating foreign interference. It's something that has been in our country for decades.

Canadians have become very complacent and comfortable in our environment. I think we need to become much more aware of what's going on around us. It's become much more prevalent with the advent of social media and the technology we're dealing with. We are at risk from the activities of hostile states. They are interested in undermining our sovereignty and our democratic institutions. It's fundamentally important to protect the national security and the future of our country. We must take the necessary precautions, with awareness and education, in order to protect ourselves and our systems moving forward.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Green—from a working-class guy in Barrie to a working-class guy in Hamilton—you have two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much.

I want to go back to your public advisories, Mr. Khoury. You mentioned that you provide general advice about social media. I note that a January 2023 article by the CBC stated, “CSE hasn't issued an advisory against using TikTok”.

Have you, by this date, issued an advisory against using TikTok?

[Sami Khoury]

In our role, we don't issue advisories on specific apps. We share advice and guidance about social media in general.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Was it your advice to the Treasury Board to ban TikTok when they were investigating this?

[Sami Khoury]

That is a decision of the CIO of Canada.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You did not advise them to ban it.

[Sami Khoury]

We contribute to the input into the decision. We are part of the round table with Treasury Board.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

At any time, did you advise them to ban TikTok?

[Sami Khoury]

No.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Madou, I noted that Ms. Henderson didn't have the answer to my question.

Was CSIS consulted when the government decided to ban TikTok?

[Peter Madou, Director General, Intelligence Assessments, Canadian Security Intelligence Service]

Not to my knowledge, no.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Did you advise, at any time, that the government should ban TikTok from government phones?