Evidence of meeting #99 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was gift.
A recording is available from Parliament.
January 30th, 2024 / 11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
It's now Mr. Berthold's turn. I apologize.
Mr. Berthold, you have five minutes.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Mr. von Finckenstein, thank you very much for your answers.
The dates are very important, because a number of statements made by the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister's Office changed along the way.
On December 22, the Prime Minister's Office said that the Trudeau family would cover the cost of their stay. On January 4, the office changed that to say that the Trudeau family stayed at a facility owned by a family friend for free. On January 10, according to the most recent version of events revealed by the Prime Minister's Office, the Prime Minister and his family stayed with family friends for free.
So we can see that the statements made by the Prime Minister's Office have changed over the weeks.
Did you speak to or participate in the discussions with the Prime Minister about this $84,000 Jamaica trip?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I did not speak with the Prime Minister or anyone in his office.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It was the advisers in my office who spoke with people in his office.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
We have here a statement by Steven MacKinnon, the new Leader of the Government in the House of Commons, dated January 8, 2024. He said that the Prime Minister followed all the rules and spoke to the Ethics Commissioner to have his travel plans approved.
But you're saying that this discussion never took place.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, no, I said I didn't speak personally—
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
You're asking me whether I personally spoke with the Prime Minister or with people from his office, which I did not do. Members of my office spoke with people from the Prime Minister's Office. I think that's what the statement was referring to, that the Prime Minister's Office had contacted the commissioner's office.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The statement isn’t as clear as you would have liked. However, that's exactly what happened.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
The translation I have here is quite clear. We can check that. We can focus on the words, but as far as I know—
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I can't answer—
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. von Finckenstein, your answer to the question is that you didn't speak to the Prime Minister personally about this situation.
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
When was your office first informed or when did you receive a request from the Prime Minister's Office for you to look into this trip?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Ms. Robinson‑Dalpé, can you answer that question?
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The request came to us in December, so before the Prime Minister left for this trip.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, it was before that.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Okay. So it wasn't discussions between your office and the Prime Minister's office that, in your opinion, changed the version of public statements.
Director, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
As the commissioner said, I can't read between the lines. The only thing I know is that the Office of the Commissioner was consulted in advance and before he left.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. von Finckenstein, in the context of your special relationship with members, in which confidentiality must be respected, how important is it to you to speak directly to the members involved? As we've seen, the Prime Minister has twice been found guilty of violating ethics rules. Unfortunately, he suffered virtually no consequences.
Wouldn't it make sense for that relationship based on trust and confidentiality with members to begin with the commissioner himself?
Interim Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
A member of my team is assigned to every individual subject to the law. If any individual wants to speak to me personally, be they a minister, an MP or the prime minister, I will speak to them, of course. I'm available.
However, it's up to the individual to say if they want to further the discussion or if they're happy with the conversation they had with the person assigned to deal with their issue.
