Information & Ethics Committee on April 30th, 2026

[Lori Turnbull]

Then you're enforcing. That's enforcement. If you want someone to register and they won't, they don't want to, they think they can get away with it and that's their mindset, they won't do it.

Then the question is around trying to catch that person, because you think someone's going to rat them out, and then you follow up with enforcement. However, no piece of legislation is going to force someone to tell you something they don't want to tell you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Transparency would at least enable us to ask questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Ms. Nathan, go ahead for two minutes, please.

[Juanita Nathan, Liberal, Pickering—Brooklin, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to both of you for being here today.

In the quick two minutes I have, I want to talk a bit about grassroots lobbying. There are some recommendations that the commissioner has given as well.

I want to talk more about social media lobbying, or AI, or any of the new forms of lobbying that we have like crowd lobbying where, instead of coming together as an organization or a lobbying firm, you have individual people lobbying, but a member of Parliament may not want to be associated with them.

How do you deal with something like that, and what would be your recommendation for that? This could be positive lobbying for something to happen or not to happen.

[Ian Stedman]

Can I ask you to reframe the end of it, that the member of Parliament might not want to be associated with being lobbied by someone?

[Juanita Nathan, Liberal, Pickering—Brooklin, ON]

Yes, it could be a bill that's going through that they don't want to be associated with. It could be a group that is negatively portraying themselves in social media.

How do you deal with something like that? What kinds of recommendations could you give?

[Ian Stedman]

I think as a member you're allowed to just say no to a meeting.

I think what you're saying is that you're bombarded with social media. That's just the world we live in, unfortunately. I'm not so sure you can avoid that unless you have people on your staff to filter it out, and you're not the one hanging out on Twitter.

I think what underlies your question is a very important topic, which is grassroots. As we know, it is a changing space within the lobbying community. It used to be the case that I put flyers on the sides of poles, and I told people to go and talk to their MPs. Now we can do all sorts of things, including using chatbots and troll farms, that don't even require humans— your AI reference there. I think that's a really important topic that we didn't talk about today, but has come up in your review that you will have to address as far as whether or not you want more registration on grassroots lobbying.

I think Commissioner Motherwell brought it up, too, with regard to the Ontario law. It's a good question.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Stedman.

Thank you, Ms. Nathan.

If you do have any thoughts on that, Mr. Stedman, and you want to share them with the committee following your appearance here today, I would certainly welcome that on behalf of the committee.

Ms. Turnbull, you mentioned very early on in your intervention the attraction to the public service of professionals from outside the public service. We're seeing, for example, in the Major Projects Office, secondments going on where people are coming in, and they're being seconded for perhaps whatever expertise they may apply to the office.

I'm not sure that many of them would be designated public office holders, but in post-employment periods when they return to their company, should the committee be concerned with any leverage that they may have gained, any understanding of how government works or any connections that they may have made for the purposes of lobbying post-secondment? The company they return to may be connected in some way to the Major Projects Office. Should we consider that aspect of it?

Ms. Turnbull.

[Lori Turnbull]

Yes, Mr. Chair, you should. I would also say that it might not show up exactly in terms of what we describe as lobbying. But it's also information, not necessarily going back to lobby the government—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

The proprietary information—

[Lori Turnbull]

—but maybe they will, maybe they won't.

Also, in terms of information that they would have gleaned at the time about how things are working, who's in charge, how decisions are being made, what the criteria are or how this project got approved under these circumstances, and now this project should look more like that. This is gold. Yes, I would look at that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Stedman, do you have any thoughts on that?

[Ian Stedman]

Yes, I agree. I think that's a question for both the Conflict of Interest Act and the Lobbying Act, for sure.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

All right. My only regret is that I didn't book you for two hours, because I think you've added a lot of value to the discussion today.

[Lori Turnbull]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I appreciate the time that you've taken with us.

We're going to suspend for a minute while we switch over to our next panel.

Thank you, both, on behalf of the committee and on behalf of Canadians. This meeting is suspended.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Welcome back, everyone.

I'd like to welcome our witness for the second hour today.

From the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, we have Frédéric Pincince, who is an inspector of sensitive and international investigations.

Mr. Pincince, you have five minutes to address the committee. Please start.

[Inspector, Frédéric Pincince, Inspector, Sensitive and International Investigations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Chair and honourable members of the committee. Thank you for the invitation to appear today as we gather on the traditional unceded territory of the Anishinabe nation and recognize the continuing presence of first nations, Inuit and Métis people in this region.

My name is Inspector Frédéric Pincince of the central region sensitive and international investigation unit.

First, I would like to take a moment to speak about the RCMP's federal policing role.

Federal policing has a multi-faceted mandate with authorities under more than 250 federal statutes and acts of Parliament. We enforce federal laws, investigate criminal activity related to national security, transnational and serious organized crime, financial crime and corruption.

We also secure Canada's borders and ensure the safety of critical infrastructure, internationally protected persons, other designated persons and democratic institutions.

The principle of police independence is fully respected throughout all investigations. Operational independence underpins the rule of law and is necessary for the maintenance of public trust. While accountable to Parliament, the RCMP is operationally independent. Police independence is an important principle in a free and democratic society that ensures that the government cannot direct or influence the actions of law enforcement and that law enforcement decisions remain based on the information and evidence available to police. The RCMP ensures that all investigative actions are appropriate to protect the integrity of the investigation and the right of the accused individual. As well, it takes steps to mitigate any future harm that may occur throughout the investigation. This is the delicate balance that the RCMP faces in all of its investigative efforts.

With this in mind, I would now like to share more information with the committee on the area within the RCMP that has the expertise and experience on leading investigations sent to us by the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying.

Federal policing is a core responsibility of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that is carried out in every province and territory in Canada, as well as internationally. As part of its federal policing mandate, the RCMP's sensitive and international investigation team investigates sensitive, high-risk matters that may cause significant threats to Canada's political, economic and social integrity of the institutions of government, public officials and the integrity of the Crown across Canada and internationally. This includes allegations of offences under the Lobbying Act.

The integrity of any criminal investigation must be protected. While subjects of investigation are sometimes known publicly, additional associates to the alleged offences are often unknown. Knowledge of the suspect, charges or investigative strategy, and techniques can lead to potential destruction of evidence, intimidation of witnesses and even result in prejudice to an innocent person.

Any disclosure of the aforementioned components has the potential to compromise an ongoing investigation.

The RCMP cannot comment on the nature or source of the information it receives relating to an ongoing investigation. In the case of enforcement of the Lobbying Act, the RCMP can confirm that it is investigating all associated matters to determine if any criminal offence has taken place.

In investigations such as those related to the Lobbying Act, the timeline of these investigations will vary depending on a myriad of factors, including matters of privilege, the number of other ongoing investigations and available resources. As a result, the duration of these investigations can vary.

Today, I am committed to provide you with as much information as I can on the RCMP investigative processes. I will answer your questions to the best of my ability, all the while protecting the integrity of any ongoing investigation.

The RCMP remains committed to this work, and we thank our partners and communities for standing with us in protecting those who have given so much to Canada.

Thank you. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Inspector.

We will now begin the first round of questions.

Mr. Hardy, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you for being with us, Inspector Pincince.

Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us today.

I'd like us to talk about foreign interference. This was an extremely important topic in 2024. We were told that it was even urgent to act on it. In 2025, during the election campaign, the current Prime Minister said that the biggest threat to our national security was China. In 2026, a strategic partnership on economic development and law enforcement was created with the Chinese police.

Do you think these facts could cause a problem?

Is Chinese interference still an issue in Canada?

[Frédéric Pincince]

That isn't within my area of expertise. I won't hide that from you.

My unit focuses really on issues related to investigations into fraud against the government, accusations or allegations against members of Parliament and the Senate, as well as related investigations, such as those that concern lobbying.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Don't you sometimes see foreign companies or interests come and lobby our decision-makers in some way?

Do you sometimes realize that there are groups active here in Canada that maybe don't go through official diplomatic channels? If so, does that become the subject of potential investigations for you?

Are you seeing that kind of activity right now?

[Frédéric Pincince]

Again, I won't hide this from you. That isn't the type of investigation we carry out under the Lobbying Act.

The investigation requests we have received, whether from the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying or from other bodies, for example, as part of ongoing investigations in a certain context, don't currently have that component.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

To clarify things for the people listening to us, could you tell us the circumstances in which you get involved?

I often see comments on social media. People wonder why there are no investigations or charges when there is evidence of unjust lobbying activities that are unfair to citizens. Lobbying can be perceived as undue pressure.

People call me about this in my riding of Montmorency—Charlevoix.

When do you get involved in the process?