Evidence of meeting #39 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigations.
A video is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Frédéric Pincince
Again, anyone who wants to file allegations can contact the RCMP. In that situation, we will assess the case. We will determine whether the complaint meets the criteria established to determine whether there is an offence under the Lobbying Act.
I'll say outright that the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying is the regulatory body that has all the necessary expertise and knowledge regarding the purpose and parameters of the act.
However, if allegations are brought to our attention, we review the case.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
What about enhancing, increasing or restructuring penalties in the case of misconduct?
Let me explain. In terms of privacy, other countries say that the penalty should be set based on a percentage of sales. The penalty would no longer be $500. It could be more like $5 million.
What do you think?
Frédéric Pincince
We're talking about a regulatory system. We're also talking about the Lobbying Act. Several tools are available to legislators to determine the best solution to ensure that individuals comply with the Lobbying Act.
In terms of putting in place additional measures, in some cases, yes, it could be beneficial to speed up some processes that determine the penalty.
There are a number of issues. We have to ask whether the offence was committed in violation of the act. Minor infractions might be better resolved through penalties, including financial penalties, or investigations conducted by the Commissioner of Lobbying.
That way, we would keep more serious Criminal Code investigations. I gave you some examples earlier.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
What about the proposals to increase the commissioner's power?
Basically, if we legislate in this regard, the commissioner could have more power.
What do you think?
Frédéric Pincince
Right now, as soon as the commissioner has a reasonable doubt, she automatically refers the case to the RCMP. The RCMP, as part of its investigation, has to look at a number of factors to determine whether there is a Criminal Code offence. As we know, lobbyists must register to lobby. If they don't register on time, it becomes an offence.
Is that the type of offence we want to go after for criminal investigations? Do we want to focus instead on investigations involving, for example, a situation where someone who actually has an interest avoids registering under the Lobbying Act?
Once again, I would say that we have to strike a balance to determine what type of offence would require a criminal investigation, what type of offence would be better resolved otherwise and how to ensure that individuals are more compliant with the act, including taking other measures.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
You said that all of this is done based on available resources. What is the situation if there is an increase or financial penalties?
We learned today that not everything goes through the commissioner. If we become very responsive to lobbying offences, what happens to your resources?
Frédéric Pincince
Anything to do with additional administrative measures is not the RCMP's responsibility. The RCMP only deals with investigations or matters referred to it in relation to criminal investigations.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.
We'll now go to the second round of questions.
Ms. Block, you have the floor for five minutes. Go ahead, please.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Pincince, for joining us today. I am not a permanent member of this committee. Nonetheless, I'm very interested in the testimony you are providing to this committee today.
In your opening remarks, you stated that your department investigates high-risk matters and that, when you do investigate, the cases have to meet certain minimum thresholds.
I wonder if you could tell this committee what those minimum thresholds or criteria are that have to be met in order for you to begin an investigation.
Frédéric Pincince
We look at the substance of the allegation. We look at all the criteria and try to assess all the elements of the offence contained in the Lobbying Act. We try to establish whether there is sufficient information for us to determine that we have reasonable grounds to believe there has been an offence. This is the minimum threshold for us to launch an investigation.
Now, there are some other factors we have to consider. As I mentioned earlier, we examine situations to determine whether there are exigent circumstances. Are we looking at a very serious transgression of the act? Are we looking at a minor transgression? As I said earlier, the lobbying commissioner refers all matters to us. Of course, we look at a very wide spectrum of offences. We have to make an assessment based on the available resources we have in order to see which ones will be prioritized.
The Lobbying Act is one of the acts we enforce, among many.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
You also mentioned that you have challenges accessing information. I wonder if you would like to speak a bit to those challenges.
Frédéric Pincince
When I say, “challenges”.... We use the tools at our disposal, like production orders to obtain information from either companies or individuals. Some of the challenges we have are in obtaining those documents. We need to meet a certain level of information to obtain those orders. We need to meet that threshold of “reasonable grounds to believe”. There are some situations where, if we cannot meet that threshold, we won't be in a position to obtain the information.
I can refer things to the lobbying commissioner, who has some compulsory powers at her disposal, such as summonsing people to provide testimony. In our case, those statements have to be voluntary. People cannot be coerced into providing statements, or influenced. We have to meet the standards provided by criminal law.
Conservative
Kelly Block Conservative Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK
Thank you.
Can you advise this committee as to whether the green slush fund or GC Strategies remains under active RCMP investigation?
Frédéric Pincince
Again, I'm not in a position to comment on or give any information about either an active investigation or matters in other investigations we have concluded, because of laws under the Access to Information Act or the Privacy Act.
We're not in a position to provide information in relation to these matters.
Conservative
Conservative
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Pincince, thank you for being with us today and for your service to our country.
You spoke to this very briefly, earlier. Could you walk us through the current process when the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying refers matters to your department?
Frédéric Pincince
We have an excellent relationship with the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying. We'll receive some communication from their office to indicate that they have a matter to refer to us. Generally, we receive a well-written report that contains all of their information and why they believe there's been an offence under the legislation.
Again, we will do the same exercise to validate that information. Sometimes we have to obtain a bit more information to try to meet our threshold to launch an investigation. At that point—again, as I mentioned—if we meet the minimum threshold, we will launch an investigation.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Could you speak to that threshold? I'm curious as to what you would consider to be a minimum threshold.
Frédéric Pincince
The minimum threshold would be, based on the information we have, that we have reasonable grounds to believe that an offence under the act has been committed.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
My colleague mentioned earlier, maybe in passing, that the Commissioner of Lobbying is seeking additional compliance measures, such as the authority to impose monetary penalties or require training. Could you provide examples of situations in which monetary penalties would be appropriate, including the potential amounts? I suppose I'm also asking whether there are certain measures you would suggest the commissioner should have.
Frédéric Pincince
I would have to say that would be a decision, based on the recommendations of this committee, as to which offences should be looked at through a criminal lens or which ones should be looked at with some alternate options, such as administrative monetary penalties.
In my opinion, when we look at the wide spectrum of potential offences, again, not registering is an offence under the act, but do we want to capture everyone who is late in registering? There could be other cases that are referred to us because there might be a lack of training or some bad information that's been provided to someone. Again, the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying possesses incredible expertise in terms of training and being able to provide advice when it comes down to what should be and what should not be....
I would see value for this committee to examine exactly which ones should be investigated from a criminal aspect, and which ones should be looked at with some alternate measures.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
It's interesting. There's a delicate balance between flexibility on this front and rigidity. There's value in having both of those matters involved in the system.
From a compliance measures standpoint, can you explain which measures—such as mandatory training—would be more suitable, and when it would be more appropriate to refer a matter to the RCMP or other provincial regulators?