Evidence of meeting #39 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigations.
A video is available from Parliament.
Frédéric Pincince
Thank you for the question.
We get involved in the process on a number of fronts.
Generally speaking, we receive a disclosure or a case from the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying. We look at the information and determine whether it shows an offence under the Lobbying Act. If the minimum threshold is met, we launch an investigation. We investigate the circumstances of the offences.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I would say that you're in reaction mode. The Commissioner of Lobbying has to take a first look and there has to be an apparent offence.
As we saw in the case of conflict of interest, if the conflict of interest isn't yet apparent, you can't launch an investigation, even if you consider, based on the information you have, that there might be a potential conflict of interest or that an offence has been committed.
You don't start an investigation until the commissioner has given you a mandate or a referral.
Is that correct?
Frédéric Pincince
Based on historical data from our investigations, 23 of the 24 investigations we've conducted since 2010 or 2012 were referred to us by the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying.
However, that doesn't prevent the RCMP from investigating some situations as well. In the course of investigations, we may find certain information. We have some expertise within the unit when it comes to the Lobbying Act. As a result, investigators are very aware of potential violations. If it is determined that there could be an offence, we will investigate the situation.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
In the case of an investigation related to ministers' offices or the Prime Minister's Office, for example, the people you are investigating are the ones who will provide you with the information.
Do you have trouble getting the information?
How do you go about making sure that the process is as clear and transparent as possible and that you actually have access to the information?
In a case like that, you are kind of investigating people who are ultimately mandated to give you the information. It's a bit of a strange loop.
What are your comments on that?
Frédéric Pincince
You're right, some of the investigations may pose challenges in obtaining the evidence needed to lay charges.
We have methods available to us under the Criminal Code for obtaining production orders, search warrants and so on. We take statements from individuals. However, we must continue the process of obtaining criminal evidence. The Criminal Code and the Lobbying Act give us guidelines. We have to continue the investigation based on those parameters.
Conservative
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
That's great.
I just want to make sure I understand the relationship between Parliament, the RCMP and all that. When you investigate, for example, a public office holder, a member of Parliament, a minister or a prime minister, do the investigations stop as soon as the person leaves parliamentary office? Does this keep following them for the rest of their lives?
If measures were taken while the person was in a position where they had to make decisions, do the investigations continue even if the person has left parliamentary life?
Frédéric Pincince
Criminal investigations will continue. No one is above the law. In those situations, we will continue our investigation as long as the parameters of the investigation allow us to do so.
Conservative
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Inspector Pincince and Mr. Hardy.
Ms. Lapointe, you have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would like to welcome the witness. We are very grateful to him for being here at the committee.
We've already met with the Commissioner of Lobbying. She came to testify before the committee and told us that, ultimately, it was the Royal Canadian Mounted Police that conducted the investigations.
Have you read her recommendations?
I just wanted to make sure, because in recommendation 17, “Additional compliance measures”, it says: Amend the Act to allow for a range of additional compliance measures, including mandatory training, administrative monetary penalties and temporary prohibitions on lobbying.
In her testimony, the commissioner said that it was a bit tiresome because she doesn't know when the RCMP closes a file. She doesn't have the information to tell her that the RCMP has closed the file. She says that she would really like to know what is going on and that this way of doing things bothers her. She has to contact the people she investigated two, three or four years ago. Very often, organizations no longer exist or people are no longer there. In her opinion, there would be a concern about the principle of natural justice. She doesn't know what else to do to be able to investigate.
What are your thoughts on that?
Frédéric Pincince
Thank you for the question.
I would like to clarify the information provided to the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying when a file is closed.
We notify the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying after each file has been closed. I believe the commissioner was referring to information related to the content of the investigation itself.
As a general rule, we provide clarification to the Office of the Commissioner on the case, and we notify it when the file is closed. However, in terms of the steps of the investigation, the statements that were made, all of that information remains within the investigation. That information is not shared at that time.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Okay. Thank you.
Earlier, my colleague talked about the process.
Do you want to clarify that?
When the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying sends you cases, exactly when and how does it do so?
Frédéric Pincince
In general, when the Commissioner of Lobbying determines that she has reasonable grounds to believe that there is an offence under the Lobbying Act, the case is forwarded to us.
We then assess the case as well as the individuals involved to ensure that they are covered by definitions in the Lobbying Act. We check whether they are consultant lobbyists or in-house lobbyists, for example. We determine whether the information is sufficient to meet the minimum threshold required for investigation. At that point, we launch an investigation.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
As you said in your presentation, you have to comply with 250 federal acts, and the one you just mentioned is one of them. You also said that, since 2010 or 2012, you have conducted 24 investigations.
How many of those investigations have been closed?
You can talk about the investigations that are completed, right?
Frédéric Pincince
Yes, I can speak generally about investigations that are completed on some of the cases.
As I said, we currently have three active cases, on which I can't provide any further information.
In terms of the other cases, if I go by the exact numbers in the past 13 years, we have about two cases that have led to charges. A case is currently before the courts. The other case was concluded, and charges were laid.
Going back a bit further, I would say that about four cases, in general, have been resolved. They led to charges. The other cases were concluded for various reasons, because we had not met the minimum evidentiary threshold in order to be able to lay charges, for example. There may be other reasons related to the parameters by which we must act in accordance with the Lobbying Act.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you.
Can you give us more details on the type of investigation you conduct, in general, and on the types of cases you handle?
What are the subjects that you don't investigate?
Frédéric Pincince
We have been assigned investigations involving several categories of offences and violations as defined in the Lobbying Act. Some of the offences, as I said, can involve a consultant lobbyist or an in-house lobbyist who is lobbying without registering. There are situations where the Lobbying Act does not allow an individual to lobby if it is conditional on reaching a percentage of revenue in a contract. Again, we deal with other types of investigations.
Lastly, we conduct investigations with respect to the usual five-year prohibition on lobbying for designated public office holders. They can't lobby for five years after they've held a position in the government. This is the type of offence under the Lobbying Act that we mainly investigate.
Liberal
Linda Lapointe Liberal Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you.
We often hear about chance meetings between a lobbyist and an MP, when the MP is about to catch a plane, for example.
In your opinion, is it an offence if the lobbyist talks to the MP about a bill without the meeting being recorded in the registry?
Frédéric Pincince
It depends on the parameters and the situation in which the communication takes place. The Lobbying Act under subsection 5(1) and section 7.1 specifically outlines the parameters that need to be met in these situations.
It depends on the circumstances. We have to assess, for example, whether it's a situation related to one of the parameters set out in the act. If the communication complies, if the lobbyist is paid by a third party, then we can talk about lobbying.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Ms. Lapointe and Inspector.
Ms. Gaudreau, you have the floor for six minutes.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There were 24 investigations. Of those, only one did not come from the Commissioner of Lobbying.
Did I understand correctly?