Evidence of meeting #40 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In this case, these employees are not order-in-council appointees. They are government employees and must follow their organization's conflict of interest code, but I'm not responsible for that.
Each government department or organization has its own code that its employees must follow, but they are not subject to the Conflict of Interest Act.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you. I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.
We often talk about the revolving door problem related to lobbying, where people who work in the private sector come to work in government and vice versa.
Do you think that poses a challenge, especially when it comes to the deadlines that an employee, an MP or a minister must meet? Are you concerned about the revolving door phenomenon?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Commissioner, please give a quick answer.
You have five seconds left.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'm sorry, but I didn't really understand the essence of the question.
Conservative
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Commissioner, you just said that you have a preventive system, but that it doesn't cover the appearance of conflicts of interest. So, in reality, you have to wait for the conflict to arise before taking action. The last time you appeared before the committee, you said that the more projects are expedited, the greater the risk of perceived or apparent conflicts. I quite agree with you that intervention should occur earlier in the process.
Ms. Farrell, who was appointed to head the Major Projects Office, spent nine years leading TransAlta, a company in which Brookfield was a shareholder. When she was appointed, the Prime Minister's ethical screen also applied to her, particularly regarding all her assets, to ensure the protection of citizens and public funds, since she is not really subject to the Conflict of Interest Act.
I'm trying to understand: Are we taking preventive measures or will we have to wait for something to happen?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
She is subject to the Conflict of Interest Act.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
Therefore, an ethical screen was fully applied in her case. She placed her shares in a blind trust. We are confident that the decisions she makes in selecting major projects will never create conflicts of interest, given that the former company she ran was co-owned by Brookfield.
Is that correct?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
She complies with the Conflict of Interest Act. In the event of a conflict of interest, she would be required to recuse herself.
The details of her declaration are confidential, as you know. However, she has disclosed the contents of her assets and any potential ties, and she has received advice on what she should sell or place in trust, among other things, as all appointees do.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
So the full process was followed.
As for the Major Projects Office, I came across something that surprised me. You'll understand that I'm really referring to the appearance of conflicts of interest. I'm not accusing anyone. However, people in my riding are talking to me about this, and I am receiving messages about it.
Let's go back to the topic of our Prime Minister and his ties to Brookfield. We know that Brookfield obtained a $250‑million loan from China. Suddenly, and for what I imagine is a rare occasion in Canadian history, as soon as the Prime Minister was appointed, he made two trips to China in two months, and a pathway to Chinese mines was opened.
In a case like that, where there could be a conflict of interest, how could you intervene? Would you currently be able to investigate whether any questionable decisions were made or would you have to wait for an official investigation to begin and to be asked to intervene? How could you intervene in such a situation of potential conflict of interest?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We can also intervene if someone files a complaint stating that there's a problem. In such a case, we look into the matter and, if there is a potential conflict of interest, we can launch an investigation. Under the Conflict of Interest Act, I have the authority to launch the investigation myself when cases of potential conflict of interest appear in the news or on television.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
So you have the power to initiate investigations if there is a perception of a conflict of interest, even though the act doesn't address the appearance of such a conflict.
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No, it's not just about perception; it's more than that. We need evidence—
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
You're talking about facts.
We've often talked about that at this committee. When you testified before the committee last time, we provided you with facts—verified facts, not just perceptions. At that point, are you able to proceed immediately or do you not really have the authority to do so because there is still no concrete evidence to investigate?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We're not talking about concrete evidence, but about evidence other than a mere possibility. There's a conflict when there is reasonable suspicion.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I have one last quick question for you. Your budget is $9.4 million. We heard from the Information Commissioner earlier. Her budget is $17.7 million.
This is one of the first times in history that there have been so many potential conflicts of interest linked to a prime minister. The current Prime Minister says that it's not his fault, that it's his past, that that's just how it is.
Do you think you have enough resources to deal with this scale of potential conflicts and ethical breaches?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I believe that the screen that has been set up will be able to prevent many potential conflicts of interest. We believe that the budget we have proposed will be adequate.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Hardy.
Mr. Al Soud, you have five minutes. Go ahead, sir.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you all for joining us today.
Commissioner, we see that other commissioners alongside their main estimates also have their departmental plans posted online, which allows us to better understand their spending and operations. Can you let us know why your office does not have them posted online?
Manager, Financial Services, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We don't fall under the Treasury Board Secretariat, so we don't have a departmental plan.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
With the following information not being public, could you please walk us through the two core budgetary purposes of your office?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Do you want our budgetary process?
Anne-Marie, please go ahead.
Manager, Financial Services, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Are you speaking about the budgetary process?
Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We have discussed our budgetary process before. We look at what we need and what's likely coming our way, as well as the mandatory increases and the projected costs. We submit them as a budget to the Speaker of the House. The Speaker of the House then examines it closely and discusses it with us if he wants to hear justifications for why we need this and what for. He then approves it or changes it and passes it on to the Treasury Board, and the President of the Treasury Board approves it and it goes automatically into the estimates.