Evidence of meeting #45 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was transparency.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Gear.
Thank you, Mr. Hardy.
Monsieur Al Soud, you have five minutes.
Go ahead, sir.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Gear and Mr. Ross, thanks to both of you for taking the time to be with us today.
I want to make sure I've understood something tied to a note from earlier. Given that our legislation includes a distinction between in-house and consultant lobbyists.... I heard a note that it currently goes above and beyond. Have I understood that correctly?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
What I meant by “above and beyond” is that our legislation is a bit different from that of most jurisdictions, in that it includes in-house lobbyists. That captures a significantly larger population of lobbyists. I think roughly 75% to 80% of the lobbyists who are currently registered are in-house lobbyists, so that obviously captures a lot more of the volume of communication with public office holders.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
You referred to, as you said, the point on cost. That's been an important conversation here over the past few meetings. We've made several references to us as members of Parliament engaging with small businesses across our ridings and not wanting to introduce barriers that would prevent transparent dialogue between us and the people on the ground.
Have people reached out to your department to make the case for modernization and improving transparency?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
As I explained in my opening remarks, the role of the Treasury Board Secretariat is somewhat limited in this regard. The president is the responsible minister, but we're not really on the front line in terms of dealing with stakeholders with respect to the Lobbying Act.
The commissioner has most of the day-to-day interaction with the lobbyist community, for example, and others. We do hear from stakeholders who write to the minister, for example. Would I say that a groundswell of pressure has been advanced to us? I'm not aware of that, but I think it is fair to say that there are changing expectations in terms of transparency, and we should see what we can do to try to address that.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Do you know of any specific instances where that need might be justified? That's to whatever extent you can speak to it, of course.
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
A lot of interesting ideas have been forwarded about including more information around each communication—for example, the participants who are there when there is an interaction with a designated public office holder. There's the potential for learning more about what is behind certain lobbyists in terms of the funding and ownership interests that may be involved. There is the potential for exploring options around that. That would definitely help address some of the concerns around transparency that I have heard.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
The Commissioner of Lobbying has proposed gaining independent regulation-making authority. Expert lawyers who appeared before this committee described that proposal as—and I'm quoting from their brief—“seriously inconsistent with foundational principles of Canadian administrative law.”
Could you walk us through how the current process for amending regulations under the Lobbying Act works? I have a follow-up question to that as well.
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
The current process is that we would be responsible for developing the regulatory proposal, and the president would be the responsible minister who then shepherds that through the process to get Governor in Council approval for any regulatory package.
We would obviously work very closely with the commissioner. If the commissioner or her office had concerns, we would work very closely with them and consult them on the content of any changes to the regulations.
That's the way that it currently works.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
To whatever extent you can speak to this, has there been any back-and-forth between your department and the commissioner on this piece? Specifically, was there ever a situation where an issue came up that she felt couldn't be addressed through the existing process, something that might have driven her to seek this authority in the first place?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I've been in this job for eight years now, and we have had no request from the office of the commissioner to make regulatory changes.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
As the committee evaluates existing rules and proposed reforms, it's important to balance transparency requirements with proportionate compliance requirements. You've already spoken to that at large here, and I imagine you speak to that fairly frequently in your day-to-day work.
I ask this specifically in the context of smaller organizations and recognizing their realities. How does the Treasury Board approach balancing transparency objectives with minimizing administrative burden for regulated entities under the Lobbying Act?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
When we are taking in-house lobbyists as part of the regime, as I've said, it requires a lot of detailed implementation. There are a lot of different scenarios that you need to work through, because the population of in-house lobbyists is so heterogeneous. As you said, with the example of a small business owner and the burden this can place on their enterprise—respecting the principle of the act that you do not want to impede free access to public officials—it's certainly something you need to take into account.
You really need to think through all of the different scenarios and put in the appropriate conditions and exceptions to be able to alleviate the burden to some degree.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Brassard
Thank you, Mr. Gear.
Thank you, Mr. Al Soud.
Mr. Bonin, you have the floor for five minutes.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
The Commissioner of Lobbying appeared before the committee this past May. Among other things, she spoke about her budget of roughly $6 million, $4.8 million of which goes to employee salaries and benefits. That means she has an operating budget of approximately $1.3 million. A large share of that, $700,000, is spent on federal services, such as human resources services. It's still a very modest budget, especially when you compare it to that of some lobbyists.
Why wouldn't the government increase the budget of the Office of the Commissioner to make the office more effective, if the goal is to be more transparent?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
I know there have been requests in the past for additional funding. I don't think there has been anything recently. I may be wrong in that regard.
Obviously, when the request comes in, it gets boarded into the budget decision-making process. I'm not part of that myself, but it is something. A decision is then made, obviously taking into account scarce public resources and various priorities and looking at the business case that has been put forward to them in terms of what the appropriate level of funding or the response to a funding request would be.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
You spoke earlier about trust in public institutions, which has waned over time for a number of reasons.
If, instead of increasing funding and resources to increase transparency, the government decreases them, are you not concerned that this trust will further erode?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
We're very cognizant of all agents of Parliament being able to fulfill their responsibilities and their mandates. Obviously, if there were decisions made to increase transparency—and I imagine that some of the recommendations that were put forward by the commissioner would significantly increase the work faced by her office—that would need to be considered to make sure the office has the adequate resources it requires to implement whatever changes are put forward.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
The commissioner told this committee that a number of officers of Parliament, including her, have to apply for funding through a ministerial portfolio, which, in her opinion, compromises their independence. She encouraged us to think about a new funding method, such as the one in New Zealand, which would be completely independent and not subject to the ideology of the day, changes in mood or interpersonal relationships.
What do you think of that suggestion, which seems interesting in terms of independence?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I know that is a common theme for all officers of Parliament.
I have certainly heard the argument from all the different agents of Parliament that it's important. They feel that it's important for their independence.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
I'm sorry, but I'm not talking about other officers of Parliament. I'm talking very specifically about the Commissioner of Lobbying. Let's talk about her case.
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
I know that the lobbying commissioner also feels that way and that she has some concerns about the effect it has on her independence.
The current system does take into account and looks very carefully at the requests put forward by agents of Parliament, and decisions are made accordingly.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
I know how it works, but I want to hear your thoughts on increasing the independence of the funding she receives. Do you think that's a good idea or not? Would that independence help restore trust?
Executive Director, Policy, Planning and Performance, Priorities and Planning Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat
It's not really up to me, sir, to express an opinion on the budget-making process and the way that funding for agents of Parliament is decided.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
So you don't have an opinion, okay.
I learned that the commissioner has no immunity in civil and criminal proceedings. Do you agree with giving her immunity to avoid that?