Evidence of meeting #12 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cra.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Garth Whyte  Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Lucie Charron  Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
Corinne Pohlmann  Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business
John Gordon  National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Betty Bannon  National President, Union of Taxation Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada
Michèle Demers  President, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Réal Lamarche  President, Audit, Financial and Scientific Group, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
Shane O'Brien  Acting Executive Assistant to the National President, Union of Taxation Employees, Public Service Alliance of Canada

4:25 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

Right now I think it's still to be decided. I think five years may be too short a time period. Don't forget about that other agenda. That other agenda was for the revenue agency, and they do, by the way, collect revenues for the provinces, and even for municipalities down the line. I think that's a very important objective, and that's not going to happen if it's a department--there's no way.

Yes, I think they should be monitoring this and also giving us other feedback on how it has improved, and maybe it has. This is just one thing we put on the table a year ago.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Your other statistical analysis was in terms of client satisfaction over the past five years. It seems to be middling; as many people seem to think it's improved as think it has got worse. Everything seems to be flatlined.

4:25 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

That's right.

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

The final question has to do with the time of compliance increasing from 6.6 days to 8.9 days. What are the reasons for that?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

I don't know. I think they're more in-depth and a lot of them are the GST. The number one issue is on the GST.

Yes, that was our question as well. There may be a way of simplifying this and making it shorter. Again, within the agency they may want to track that and make that one of their goals.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you, Mr. McKay.

Mr. Del Mastro.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

I'm going to go back to the GST for a moment. I asked a specific question of the agency the other day when they were here that pertained to first of all their seeming to be very strict when the money is due but very slow in paying money back when it's owed. Is that the principal problem we see with the GST? People get very frustrated at that.

4:30 p.m.

Policy Analyst, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Lucie Charron

A lot of what we've been hearing from our members is exactly that. When it comes to remitting it's very strict, but when it comes to credits from overpayment, we've heard in some cases it's taken two years to get a credit and in some cases it's taken six months. There's quite a discrepancy there.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

My understanding is--and certainly I've had some personal dealings as well--that the appeal process is actually quite poor pertaining to the GST as well.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

Well, it can be improved.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Frequency of audits and the time duration of audits are both increasing. Are we tending towards a bit of harassment here of our small-business owners? There is certainly an opportunity cost involved with audits.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

There is, and people do not like to be audited, but I would still go back to figure 11, where they talk about the quality of the audit and the people auditing it. That's a really good report card. The audits were less onerous than people thought. I would lean towards this: maybe there is a policy where they want to spot-check more, but I don't know what that is.

Also, I think people want to do the right thing, but you can't do the right thing if it's unclear what the rules are. You don't know where to get the rules and you can't get interpretations on the rules. That's another message that's coming out of this report.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

How can we make the GST a little easier to submit? Would you like to see an electronics submission process, or something like that, where business owners wouldn't have to go to the bank, for example?

4:30 p.m.

Director, National Affairs, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Corinne Pohlmann

Absolutely, that would be very helpful, plus a little more flexibility around the remittance schedules that are in place. As well, one of the big issues right now is that it's always based on estimates rather than on actuals, and that can have a big impact on people's cashflow.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you, Mr. Del Mastro and committee members, for your questions.

We appreciate the responses of Mr. Whyte and our guests today.

On behalf of the committee, thank you for being here.

Also, we want to give you a heads-up, given the lack of notice for today's meeting. I'm notifying you now, on behalf of the committee, that we expect a presentation on the pre-budget consultations in the not too distant future. You may begin your preparation for it.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

Thank you. We'll get on that right away.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Thank you.

I'll invite the other panellists who are joining us to make their way forward as best they can, and we'll proceed.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Vice-President, Canadian Federation of Independent Business

Garth Whyte

Thank you.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

I will use this opportunity to remind committee members that our Monday meeting will feature testimony from the Minister of Finance regarding the parliamentary budget analysis office. Also, the Auditor General will be here on Monday, from 4:30 to 5:30, to give testimony with respect to the analysis of Revenue Canada in the context of her most recent report. That's just to remind members about Monday's proceedings.

Our guests for the second portion of our testimony today are from the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada. I understand that Madame Demers will be doing the presentation.

I welcome you all.

Madame Demers or Mr. Gordon, I invite you to begin your presentations.

Who do you wish to present?

June 14th, 2006 / 4:30 p.m.

John Gordon National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

There are two presentations. Michèle is going to be doing the presentation for the Professional Institute.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Followed by PSAC?

4:30 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

We're doing a tag team here. She said that I can go first; I said that she can go first.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Brian Pallister

Take it away.

Who do you wish to proceed?

Mr. Gordon.

4:30 p.m.

National President, Public Service Alliance of Canada

John Gordon

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. On behalf of the Public Service Alliance of Canada, thank you for giving us this opportunity.

I have with me Betty Bannon, who's the national president of the Union of Taxation Employees.

I want to first of all thank the standing committee for inviting us to appear this afternoon.

The CRA is an important part of the government's operation and structure. It is one of the largest definable parts of the government, and, notwithstanding its mandate, is well respected by the majority of Canadians. This fact is in no small part due to the skill and hard work and dedication of the 26,000 PSAC-UTE members who work for the CRA.

I should like to say at the outset that while this five-year review is legislatively mandated, a fundamental restructuring of the CRA would not fit well with PSAC, our component--the Union of Taxation Employees--or the thousands of members we are privileged to represent who work for the CRA. Let me say off the top that I acknowledge that the government has every right to restructure and reorganize the operations, but these rights should be tempered. They should be tempered in the case of the CRA because of the enormity and complexity of the restructuring that created the CRA a little over five years ago, a process that is still incomplete, in terms of some significant human resource issues that we'll address in a minute.

Members of the committee should understand that the adoption of the legislation that created the CCRA was not the end of the process. The CCRA workforce that was represented by the PSAC and by UTE and CEUDA--which is the Customs Excise Union Douanes Accise--which are our two components with members who were transferred from Treasury Board to the CCRA, went through a certification process that took fully 18 months and cost our members tens of thousands of dollars. More importantly, we were not in a position during this period to exercise our full rights with regard to collective bargaining, and let me explain that.

While we negotiated with the CCRA management during the period and successfully reached an agreement, the Public Service Staff Relations Board deemed our agreement to have been an agreement in terms and conditions of employment rather than a negotiated collective agreement. Thankfully, we were able to reach an agreement at the table, because until we were certified by the PSSRA, we did not have the right to strike or the assistance of a third party through the establishment of a conciliation board.

There are consequences to restructuring, particularly when the restructuring changes the official employer of the government department or agency workforce. As members of the committee are aware, despite its relative youth as an independent agency of the federal government, the CCRA has gone through a significant restructuring in its own right. On December 12, 2003, Canada Customs was transferred to the Minister of Public Security and Emergency Planning. Notwithstanding our position that this was an appropriate restructuring of government operations, it had a significant impact on our members who were transferred to the Canada Border Services Agency as well as on those who remained in the more narrowly defined Canada Revenue Agency.

In its first report, “The First Five Years”, the CCRA had this to say, and I quote:

In 2003 the Agency initiated the development of a new classification standard for the Program Delivery and Administrative Service occupational group, which covers approximately 75% of the CRA employees. However, the work has been temporarily put on hold as a result of the departure of Customs to the new Canada Border Services Agency.

Leaving aside the fact that we don't believe that the CRA, like the federal government in general, has moved quickly enough to update what is truly an antiquated classification system, there can be no doubt that restructuring within government departments and agencies delays the process, with significant negative consequences for the workers we represent.

I said at the outset that governments have every right to restructure and reorganize their operations, but in addition to the tangible impacts of restructuring, some of which I have outlined in the CCRA, CRA, and CBSA situation, there is a view strongly held within our membership that there is no stability within the government's administrative structure, and that while change may be a good thing, constant change undermines the morale and the effectiveness of public institutions.

As a result, we strongly encourage the government, and particularly a government in a minority Parliament, to take a step back and allow some of the restructured departments and agencies, including the CRA, a period of stability, a period of time to complete some of the processes, including classification, that are both necessary and desirable.

That said, there are issues at a more micro level where we think change can and should take place. I will start with a few comments on collective bargaining, and Betty Bannon will talk briefly about union-management relations, and particularly staffing and staffing recourse issues.