Finance Committee on Oct. 5th, 2006

[Hamid Javed]

I think literacy is important, both for the international level and for the Canadian level. In our brief, we also mentioned the cutbacks to the literacy programs in Canada. We don't like those cutbacks.

What happens with literacy is that the perspective of individuals changes and the communities change. The simple recognition of certain symbols on a piece of paper can help individuals and human beings all over the world. I think that has been the basis of our development in civilization: that people could convey ideas through symbols on a piece of paper. I may not be able to read Hindi, for example, but if I can read Urdu and if I can read English and French, then that helps me acquire the idea that somebody created in those languages. So I think it's very important for us.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

Thank you very much. My question is now for Mr. Steeves, from the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

In your brief, there was an inset on climate change. I liked that because when we told the government in the House that Canada's inability to meet the Kyoto targets would lead to environmental disaster, their response was: “Yes, but going ahead would lead to an economic disaster for all intents and purposes”. Finally, several Quebeckers and more and more Canadians believe the opposite, that not taking serious responsibility for the issue of climate change will lead to economic disaster.

Do you have any numbers reflecting the costs you spoke about? Can you give us an idea? What would Canada's and the international community's lack of action on climate change represent?

[Gord Steeves]

I don't know that I have a specific dollar value, if that's what you're looking for today. I would defer to my CEO if we have any....

[James Knight, Chief Executive Officer, Federation of Canadian Municipalities]

It's very big money. Some of the disasters that we've already experienced and that you're aware of, such as the ice storm, may or may not relate to global warming, but it's apparent that we're going to have more of them. We are experiencing more of them, and the costs are simply incalculable. They're absolutely enormous. An ice storm of the sort we had a few years ago, were it to recur, would cost multiple billions of dollars.

[Gord Steeves]

With respect to the sustainability file, I might just add that we are obviously pushing five specific areas: public transit, which I spoke about already; suggestions of a municipal adaptation fund to help cities and communities that are already experiencing the effects of climate change; energy efficiency and improving building energy efficiency, corporate- and community-wide; the renewable energy things that have been done; and, of course, some of the biofuel initiatives as well.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

With respect to the tax credit for public transit users, the conservative government has focussed a great deal on spending effectiveness. What has been the return on that? In concrete terms, how many people are going to be using public transit because they receive a tax credit? Has there been a rise in the number of public transit users? Could you link this increase to such a measure? If there is an increase, what part of that is due to the new tax credit?

[Gord Steeves]

We have seen some increases in ridership, but it's hard to say exactly why. In the context of fuel prices going up, that might have a lot to do with it. It's a strict measurement.

Our anecdotal sense is probably that the tax credit would pull up some marginal increase in ridership. And I want to be clear that we take no issue—in fact, we're very supportive—with any tax credit or anything that comes from the federal government that will encourage transit use. But as I had alluded to Mr. McCallum, we want to be crystal clear that in our estimation, those shouldn't be replacements for the hard infrastructure dollars we'd be asking for to establish that infrastructure. They're two different things, in our estimation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

You have 20 seconds left.

[Thierry St-Cyr, Bloc, Jeanne-Le Ber, QC]

What will most encourage people to take public transit? Better service or lower prices?

[Gord Steeves]

They would both have positive effects. In our estimation, more infrastructure for things like rapid transit in the big centres would make the biggest difference for ridership.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, sir.

Mr. St-Cyr, thank you very much.

We continue with Mr. Wallace, for seven minutes.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll be a lot less political. I seem to be the least political guy on this committee.

It's Dr. Smadu, is that correct? Is that a PhD or is that an MD?

[Dr. Marlene Smadu]

No, it's a PhD.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

It's a PhD in nursing.

I noticed one thing about your presentation today that was interesting to me, and it was that you led with investing in information systems, over the human capital aspects. Is that your organization's priority?

[Dr. Marlene Smadu]

Health human resources is a key priority for nursing, but we really believe information technology is an infrastructure issue on which we are probably ten years behind. We have some evidence already that when you have appropriate technology in place, your actual utilization of health human resources will be different.

We're not planning for a system where we're all going to be doing the same things that I started doing 33 years ago as a nurse, we're planning for different kinds of models of care. That includes things like telehealth, where you can have nurses available 24 hours a day, providing both information and advice and counselling for people who otherwise might have to travel long distances.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So if we invest in information technology, it may make the nurses we have more efficient than they are at this present time, is that basically it?

[Dr. Marlene Smadu]

It could make the nurses more efficient or make better use of them as nurses. I think it will definitely add to the quality of care for citizens, because it creates a different level of safety and quality in the system. I think it becomes an attractive feature.

I'm in education in nursing, and I'll tell you that our young people are very used to using technology for everything. They're surprised when they get into our institutions and find that we're so behind.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

My next question is for Mr. Steeves or Mr. Knight, whoever wishes to answer.

I come from the municipal level. I was elected in January, so I'm relatively new to the partisan aspects of these committees. I have not yet heard a definition of “long-term”. Does your organization have a definition of “long-term”?

[Gord Steeves]

Yes, we do. Twenty years would be the.... We have a specific policy, and I'll ask Jim to make it crystal clear.

[James Knight]

We have a study that looks at different levels of investment and picks the optimal time period to get the job done. It's about a twenty-year timeframe. If we leave it longer, the costs will—

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So you would like a federal government today to commit to a twenty-year program, is that correct?

[James Knight]

That's correct.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I spent thirteen years at the municipal level, and the subject of my next question has always been surprising to me.

You may know some of my colleagues from the City of Burlington. You actually have one of them on your board, or at least she was.

[A voice]

Joan Lougheed.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

On the issue of moving from hard services like roads to adding the ability to put in recreation facilities and so on, it does surprise me somewhat. It's easy to cut a ribbon at a recreation facility, but it's not so easy to cut a ribbon on a road. The infrastructure deficit is large on the roads and the hard services, so why is the Canadian group on the cities agenda adding that additional level? That's my question.