Finance Committee on Oct. 24th, 2006

[Gayle McIntyre]

Yes. You're absolutely right on the history of that.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Okay. And now you're asking for another federal housing program?

[Gayle McIntyre]

Actually, maybe I wasn't clear, but in our recommendation we are asking for a separate provincial and federal department, because, to echo these comments here, we need to go back and put programs into place that resemble something that was efficient and worked, and then develop those.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

You sell that in the first part, but if you look on page 10, your recommendation talks about a separate provincial department for housing. And I wasn't clear. You are aware that we continued with the $800 million for affordable housing for provinces and territories in the last budget.

[Gayle McIntyre]

I'm aware that something's happening, and I think Paul O'Hara brought that up. There seems to be a synaptic gap between the federals saying, “Well, we've given you this money”, and then we're going into the provinces...“Well, where did it go?”

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

Yes, but that's a provincial issue. If we've given the money to the province, the province has to come through with putting it into housing. Is that not correct? Would you not agree?

[Gayle McIntyre]

I do agree, but I think the federal government has to take some responsibility in setting the guidelines and monitoring programs to see that those moneys are going exactly where they're supposed to be going, as outlined by the policies.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

I think it was also mentioned by somebody on the panel about aboriginal housing. We've put another $300 million in the budget, I believe, into that. That's for off-reserve folks.

I'd just like your comments on our continuing that process and how you feel about that.

[Paul O'Hara]

I'd say what's happening is about one-tenth of the need. The province establishes its own priorities and how it uses housing money. We think the federal government should put standards down. They should lead and they should get beyond capital and into programming. There are a lot of people who experience chronic homelessness who need supported and supportive housing, and nobody accepts responsibility for those people. That's why they wander the streets homeless.

[Mike Wallace, Conservative, Burlington, ON]

So you say the province is not accepting responsibility for the housing issue?

[Paul O'Hara]

I think the province has $23 million. I have no idea how they intend to spend it over the next three or four years. We're afraid that it'll go into rent supplements to private landlords who, after ten years, will have no accountability. We don't know what the province is going to do with the $23 million. It's not a lot of money, really, over the next three or four years; $23 million is not going to produce a lot of units. We're hoping that will be non-profit housing units, but we don't know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you, Mr. Wallace.

I'll conclude with a question for you, Paul.

Stretching the effectiveness of the housing dollars is a concern for all of us. In certain jurisdictions they are utilizing more private ownership of the houses, working toward that goal. This is similar to the Habitat for Humanity model. It includes the recipient in the design preparation and the sweat equity involved in the creation of the home. Generally, the homes that are managed, particularly on reserves, last less than half as long as privately held housing stock and cost more to build.

Are you familiar with any such experiments? Are you aware of any moves to proceed in a more creative way with the housing issue? I know so far you've only had the chance to ask for more money, but I'd like to ask you how the money could be more effectively spent.

[Paul O'Hara]

I think it's more effectively spent by creating community. We support mixed housing and home-ownership programs. However, by and large, non-profit housing delivery of social housing is the best bang for the buck. We need not-for-profit social housing in our province. We need it desperately. The other program is great. But my experience with home ownership, particularly for people of low income, shows me that people with low incomes don't have the capacity to maintain home ownership programs. Unlike people with incomes in the middle range, poorer people can't deal with leaky basements and roofs, or fridges and stoves that break down. We're not suggesting that you not provide incentives for people to own their own homes. However, the best bang for the buck is non-profit housing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

I've had conversations with chiefs across Canada who tell me that they get called to fix window screens at two in the morning. They are expected to provide cleaning supplies to some of the people in their communities. Do you see that this situation might be counter-productive? Why do you say that people aren't capable of doing their own home maintenance?

[Paul O'Hara]

They don't have the resources to do it. I didn't say they weren't capable.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Explain.

[Paul O'Hara]

Economically, they're not in a position to own home property and manage it. I'm basing this observation on the low-income people I work with.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Isn't there a significant difference between saying people don't have the economic resources to manage a home and saying they don't have the capacity to learn how?

[Paul O'Hara]

My point was economic. I think the way to get around the issue you're raising with the chief, although I don't have experience with aboriginal housing, is the cooperative model, a community-inclusive model. I work with non-profit organizations in which tenants are on the organization's board of directors. They're involved in tenant selection committees. They get hired to do security and maintenance. The whole community-building component of housing is important, and that's where the ownership is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

There are about three dozen first nations communities across Canada that are moving in this direction. Some have been doing it for almost two decades, and the significant improvement in the quality of the housing stock, the quality of the neighbourhoods being created in those first nations communities, is remarkable. The housing stock is superior to what you find in most first nations communities in my province. Typically, you'd be able to tell that the housing stock was deteriorating just from a physical observation of it. But that's not true on a number of first nations reserves whose councils have moved in the cooperative direction you described earlier.

So I think there's hope. I'd like to see more best-practices models, and you've alluded to that in a couple of your presentations.

I want to thank you on behalf of the committee. This has been a most stimulating discussion. We very much appreciate you being here.

Committee members, we will reconvene at one o'clock sharp.

We're adjourned.