Finance Committee on March 22nd, 2007

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I think you answered the question in terms of when you're processing a transaction from financial institution to financial institution, but within a financial institution, it doesn't touch your system.

[Doug Kreviazuk]

Right.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I think somebody else also asked you about areas where the CPA is not involved. When does that happen? For big companies like Hydro-Québec and Bell Canada, when you're paying your utility bill, do you process all those as well?

[Doug Kreviazuk]

I can't tell you about those specific examples, but what I could suggest is that there are two ways this could happen. For the most part, they will come through us as a bill payment. But there are companies out there that have established financial arrangements with the majority of financial institutions.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Well, I'll give you some examples. For example, my car insurance I pay directly out of my bank statement. My phone bill, I pay directly on my credit card. Are those two transactions going through your system?

[Doug Kreviazuk]

No. The first one is; the latter, or the credit card, is not.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

The credit card is not. So that would be the credit card.

[Doug Kreviazuk]

Yes.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So how is it treated? When do you come in? You can also have different agreements. For example, Hydro can have an agreement or my insurance company can have an agreement with a financial institution. Would they be subject to the same laws or regulations as you are?

[Doug Kreviazuk]

Barb, do you...?

[Barbara Ciarniello]

I think I need a bit of clarification. I'm trying to understand. By the way, although we're not confident, I'm not sure that Bell has an identification number, but I need to understand what you're asking.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Are the people who are not part of the Canadian Payments Association, who take money directly from my bank account without going through your system, subject to the same regulations as you are or the same structure?

[Doug Kreviazuk]

If it's going from a bank account to a biller, the biller must have a financial institution in order to receive that payment.

[Barbara Ciarniello]

The biller can't take the money from your account, so it has to be your financial institution that has access to it.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But how am I covered so that the person whom I've authorized to take money out of my account is taking the right amount?

[Doug Kreviazuk]

Oh, I see. I think you're thinking of a pre-authorized debit—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

It's a pre-authorized debit?

[Doug Kreviazuk]

—-as opposed to the credit, where you're logging onto your site.... As Mr. McKay said, he's logging onto his site and he's pushing the funds to the biller. I think what you're talking—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Well, it's both ways. Some bills I pay by pushing—

[Doug Kreviazuk]

Right.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

—and some bills I pay by being pulled.

[Doug Kreviazuk]

Now, there's a totally different framework in the event of a pre-authorized debit. What you would do is sign a legal agreement with that biller. You would give them the authority—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Okay, so that doesn't affect.... That's between me and—

[Doug Kreviazuk]

That comes through us.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

That does go through you?