Evidence of meeting #16 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Oram  Accor Services
Marc Lamoureux  President, Association of Nova Scotia University Teachers
Valerie Payn  President, Halifax Chamber of Commerce
Ian Bird  Senior Leader, Sport Matters Group
Gary Glauser  New Brunswick Non-Profit Housing Association
Ian Johnson  Policy Analyst and Researcher, Nova Scotia Government and General Employees Union
Gretchen Fitzgerald  Director, Atlantic Canada Chapter, Sierra Club of Canada
Erika Beatty  Chief Executive Officer, Symphony Nova Scotia
Glenn Drover  Social Worker, Canadian Association of Social Workers
Sharon Sholzberg-Gray  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association
Chris Wiebe  Officer, Heritage Policy and Government Relations, Heritage Canada Foundation
Teri Kirk  Vice-President, Public Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Imagine Canada
Trevor Lewis  Chair, National Association of Indigenous Institutes of Higher Learning
Betty Jean Sutherland  Vice-President-at-Large, Nova Scotia Federation of Labour
Roberto Jovel  Coordinator, Policy and Research, Ontario Council of Agencies Serving Immigrants

2:20 p.m.

President, Halifax Chamber of Commerce

Valerie Payn

It relates to this point. My only comment to it would be that this is one that the federal government could certainly very easily measure, because oftentimes when you put resources to something, it's out there; you're not really sure. To work, this would have to change behaviour. You could actually measure in numbers of people and numbers of dollars and so on, I would suggest, in a very easy way.

2:20 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Well, I think that's a great point. In fact, I get bimonthly updates from the transit commission in St. Catharines, in my riding, just to identify and let me know the increase in usership. There's no question that it has had a significant impact on and provided additional revenue for the transit system itself.

Mr. Bird, I can't resist. You mentioned St. Catharines and the tremendous number of athletes who have come out of there and are training in Calgary. When we were in Calgary on pre-budget consultations, it was pretty uplifting to know that, whatever size a community may be and wherever it may be located in the country, there are a number of them that produce solid athletes to represent our country, both on the sports side of it and also in terms of representing our country. I wanted to mention that I appreciated your noting that we have some pretty strong and competitive athletes from St. Catharines who compete for us on the world stage.

To add to that, I note that both Mr. Savage and Mr. St-Cyr again complimented the government on the child credit for children playing sports. I don't know whether you guys are going to do some research or not, but I guess my question is, if you are doing some anecdotal work now, in terms of the benefits it's had, are you planning to do a follow-up to see what the increase means?

2:25 p.m.

Senior Leader, Sport Matters Group

Ian Bird

I think your chairman, when he was on the Standing Committee on Health, recommended that the research be done and be tabled within the first three years of the credit's use. I think that's fair counsel.

The further research, though, needs to look at the non-tax-paying part of the population and how they get the kind of support that makes it more.... I think that's something—speaking to Mr. Pacetti's point—that can be done in concert with the business community, the philanthropic community, and the public community.

Thank you.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

Mr. Glauser, you made a comment with respect to the $800 million we included, from a federal perspective, in 2006. Those funds were transferred. Every province, including New Brunswick, put in a third-party trust account pretty much the day after the federal budget was released.

For New Brunswick, that meant an additional $18.4 million for affordable housing and an additional $6.7 million for off-reserve aboriginal housing. I'm disappointed to learn today that while that money may be sitting in a third-party trust account collecting a little bit of interest, it hasn't been put to use. I wonder if you know when this might actually be implemented by the provincial government.

2:25 p.m.

New Brunswick Non-Profit Housing Association

Gary Glauser

The funds are available for the groups to apply for, so groups are, as we speak, applying for the funding.

One issue, though, is the March 31, 2009, deadline. That's one of the main issues of not having a long-term housing strategy: groups get some money, and then they have to panic and try to get a housing project put together. It doesn't work that easily on the ground. But they are feverishly working to get those moneys spent.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

Do I have a little bit of time, or is that...? I have a really quick question.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Yes, I'm going give you one more.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Ms. Payn, you mentioned the additional countries, especially in Europe, that have taken advantage of the lowering of their corporate tax rates and the benefits this has on the situation with respect to the rest of the country. Sweden and Finland are countries that have done that.

Have you prepared a document, or has the Canadian chamber prepared a document, to show the types of benefits that lower corporate tax rates have on the...? I'm not even going to list them out, because once you start to list them out, you pick favourites, and I think you made a good point that we shouldn't be doing that.

Has the Canadian Chamber of Commerce attempted to do that?

2:25 p.m.

President, Halifax Chamber of Commerce

Valerie Payn

I can't speak for the Canadian chamber, but is your question, can we see the benefits of lower corporate tax rates on the country overall and what would happen?

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Yes.

2:25 p.m.

President, Halifax Chamber of Commerce

Valerie Payn

I'm sure we could come up with something for you. I can't say from my head what's out there. I'm sure work has been done and models done by our various economic think tanks around the country—perhaps even us, for all I know. One can only assume that if there are more moneys available, business will reinvest in things such as productivity, growing the business, etc., and as a result will be taxed more. This is what happens: there's a broader base, but at a lower rate, so there's more of it. That's what happened in other countries. One can only assume that would be the natural course of events in this country as well.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Dykstra Conservative St. Catharines, ON

Thank you.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much to the witnesses for coming forward. We thank you on behalf of the committee.

We'll take a quick pause as we bring our second group of panellists in and take a bit of a stretch break.

We'll adjourn for five minutes.

2:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

We will resume the meeting. We want to thank the panellists for coming forward and being here. This is our last panel for the day. We're looking forward to what you have to advise us with regard to our pre-budget consultations.

We'll start the presentations with the Canadian Association of Social Workers, Glenn Drover.

The floor is yours. We'll give you five minutes. We have a full panel, so if you can keep it to five minutes, we'd certainly appreciate it.

2:35 p.m.

Dr. Glenn Drover Social Worker, Canadian Association of Social Workers

Thank you, Chair, and thank you for inviting us.

I'm going to divide my oral presentation into two parts: briefly, an expression of our concerns, which will echo several things you've already heard, and then talking about our suggestions.

In terms of our concerns, our written submission to you comes from a social policy perspective. Like many other organizations whose primary interest is social policy, we ask that changes in the tax system be examined not only in terms of economic efficiency but also in terms of their social and distributional impact. Some government and tax expenditures are simply based on an ethic of solidarity and an obligation to help those in need, not on economic efficiency.

A related concern is that the ongoing preoccupation of governments—federal and provincial—with tax cuts, particularly income tax cuts, can and maybe will undermine the capacity of the federal government to maintain the existing programs into the future and curb dramatically the potential for new initiatives, particularly when such cuts, in terms of their efficacy, have not been yet examined.

At present, there are serious gaps in federal social policy. There is no national housing strategy, there is no commitment to reduce poverty, the correctional system is underfunded, the welfare and employment insurance system is dysfunctional, labour market policies with regard to women are constrained, the development of publicly funded child care spaces has gone into slow motion, and there is a need for a national strategy on disability.

Each of these concerns is not purely social in nature. They all have implications for the tax system. Many of them have or can have an impact on productivity, investment, and economic growth. Nor does their resolution necessarily mean the resurrection of old programs. New federal approaches that put a greater emphasis on transfers and refundable tax credits for individuals rather than transfers to provinces and territories need further exploration. New approaches may also help to clarify the relative fiscal responsibilities of different levels of government.

With these observations as background, the following are the main suggestions or recommendations we would like to put forward.

First, in terms of the criteria for tax reform, in our judgment, equity and fairness should be a primary tax principle, as well as efficiency. We think here particularly of vertical as well as horizontal equity.

Second, taxation should be consistent with constitutional responsibilities, and jurisdictional overlap should be minimized as much as possible.

Third, taxes should be implemented not only to promote economic growth and efficiency, but also to assure development that is socially sustainable.

Fourth, a preference in social policy should be given to taxes with a broad base that do not impede work and are redistributional.

Fifth, we think core social and health services, as well as income security, should be funded primarily through taxes on income and payroll.

Sixth, the OECD suggests that Canada could increase value-added taxes to offset lower business taxes. While that may make sense for business, value-added taxes are generally regressive and tend, in some respects, to neutralize the progressivity of income taxes.

In terms of the second question you raised, about the appropriateness of corporate taxes, this is not an area about which we know very much of anything, but we just want to make one suggestion: given the ongoing debate about appropriate levels of corporate taxes, we recommend that the federal government follow proven international practices in order to ensure that additional corporate tax cuts will in fact lead to significant economic and productivity gains for Canada. We think that at the moment this is an unknown.

Finally, in relation to what is an appropriate form of personal taxes, we have three suggestions.

One is that the ongoing use of income tax cuts and non-refundable tax credits to benefit middle- and higher-income individuals or families is not only inequitable but compromises the capacity of future governments to finance high-quality, comprehensive services and income supports for Canadians at risk.

Two, we think these and other charges should not be a major deterrent to essential public services such as health care, social services, and education.

Then, three, we suggest that the federal government reassess its bias to cutting income taxes and examine more closely those economies that maintain high standards of public provision, along with high levels of economic growth and productivity. That is a path that, in our judgment, is more likely to sustain high standards of living in this country, and in the future, a more equitable society.

In our written brief, we give you an example of a reform that we think meets many of these criteria, and it has been put forward too, I think, by the Caledon Institute of Social Policy in relation to the reform of welfare and employment insurance. It's a comprehensive reform that, in our judgment, does two things: one, it shows new approaches in the way the federal government can deal with these things; and secondly, it clarifies jurisdictional responsibility for taxation.

2:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to the Canadian Healthcare Association. We have with us Sharon Sholzberg-Gray, president and CEO.

In a past life, we heard your testimony before committee many times, and we look forward to your five minutes today.

2:40 p.m.

Sharon Sholzberg-Gray President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association

Thank you.

CHA is the federation of provincial and territorial hospital and health organizations across Canada, representing over 900 hospitals and more than 4,700 health facilities covering acute, home, community, and long-term care.

Just for people from Nova Scotia, I want to remind you that our Nova Scotia member is the Nova Scotia Association of Health Organizations.

Our members are basically the publicly funded health system in Canada. I'd like to say that the CHA is a leader in developing and advocating for health policy solutions that meet the needs of Canadians. We're committed to a publicly funded health system that provides access to a continuum of comparable health services throughout Canada.

First, we have to say this because every day in the newspaper someone else is saying that our publicly funded health system is not sustainable: we must state categorically that, contrary to the myths that are circulating, the Canadian health system is sustainable. I'd like to use the latest OECD data. These data were produced recently and take into consideration the increases after the 2004 health accord.

What the data say is that Canada ranked ninth amongst OECD countries in total health spending—that is public and private combined—as a percentage of GDP. How many times have you read that we're second? We're ninth. If you look at public funding only, we're thirteenth. What this really shows is that Canada's health system is both sustainable and efficient and compares favourably with the OECD countries to which Canada is usually compared.

Privatizing more health costs by shifting them to individuals or their employers would not make these costs less onerous. We've said over and over again that cost shifting isn't cost saving. We already heard somebody in the previous session talk about the competitive advantage to Canadian businesses of having our health system. Given the high Canadian dollar, this is more important than ever.

Now to the issue of taxes, which I'd like to link to the federal spending power. There's so much talk about how important it is to cut taxes—and we're not saying that taxes ought not to be cut and we're not saying Canadians ought not to have some money to spend on their own—that we have to keep reminding ourselves that taxes are the price citizens of a country pay for the goods and services they collectively provide for themselves and each other. Federal tax revenue enables the federal government to help deliver services and fund programs for the health and social well-being of all Canadians.

While we know the delivery of health services is a provincial and territorial responsibility, the federal government has traditionally used its constitutional spending power to assert the Canada Health Act and to achieve pan-Canadian objectives. Any move to restrict the use of the federal spending power—and I'm not saying it should be used without provincial concurrence and agreement—in the future could have a negative, if not chilling, impact on future health programs like pharmacare, which is the program most provinces are asking for, by the way.

Let's talk about tax cuts and debt repayment. CHA is particularly interested in the question posed by the committee as to whether tax cuts should be broad-based or targeted to specific groups. Here, of course, the details are important. What we'd like to say is that socio-economic status is tied to health status. Therefore, if we improve the financial status of low-income individuals through a reduction in the tax rate at the lowest income bracket, this will benefit the health system as well as individuals at all income levels. I know the government has done this to some extent, but it can do it perhaps a little more at the lowest levels.

Also, CHA recognizes the need to pay down debt with surplus funds, but we would like to ensure—and I'm sure everyone else has told you the same thing—that some surplus money is allocated, before the end of the fiscal year, to special funds to achieve health and social purposes, rather than allocating the entire unplanned surplus to debt reduction. There needs to be some balance between tax cuts, paying down the surplus, and the need to invest in the infrastructure of this country. And we're not just talking about health infrastructure; in fact, we think it's important to invest to the determinants in health.

So what do Canadians want? Every time there's a poll, what Canadians are saying is what their number one issue is. Sometimes they're saying the environment now, and sometimes they're saying health, but health is still up there. Only 3% of respondents in most polls—and I don't quite know how Canadians have this split personality, but they do—say taxes are the most important issue facing Canadians. Remember that when Premier Charest announced that some of his increased equalization payments would go into tax relief, Quebeckers answered, no, we want them to go into health and education and social services. That's an interesting thing to keep remembering.

But I have to repeat that CHA is not arguing for higher taxes. We're only saying that taxes pay for needed services and that if there are tax cuts, we think they should be broad-based in a way that enhances economic growth, that they should help low-income Canadians, and that they have to improve health status.

Am I at five minutes now?

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

You're over.

2:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Healthcare Association

Sharon Sholzberg-Gray

I'm over. Can I give a list of where I wanted...? No? It's all in our brief.

2:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to the Heritage Canada Foundation. We have with us Chris Wiebe, officer of heritage policy and government relations.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

2:45 p.m.

Chris Wiebe Officer, Heritage Policy and Government Relations, Heritage Canada Foundation

Thank you.

The Heritage Canada Foundation, HCF, was created as a national trust in 1973. It's an independent, membership-based charitable organization and has a public mandate to promote the rehabilitation and sustainable reuse of historic buildings.

Over the past 30 years, Canada has lost 20% of its pre-1920s historic buildings to demolition. This is lamentable. But why should we retain and rehabilitate Canada's historic places in the first place? There are many socio-economic benefits. As Professor Pacey mentioned this morning, these iconic places define our communities and attract tourist dollars. What's more, their rehabilitation generates twice the jobs of new construction, and it is also a proven catalyst for the revitalization of depressed urban areas.

There are also many environmental benefits. Reviving old buildings reduces greenhouse gases. A recent Canadian study showed that rehabs use a third of the energy of new construction. Rehabilitation also supports sustainability by recycling, and it keeps demolition waste away from the landfills.

Unfortunately these days, there are many financial disincentives that stand in the way of preserving these historic places. The federal tax system contains disincentives of its own. The Income Tax Act is unclear on which types of rehabilitation work are repair and maintenance—a deductible current expense—and what must be capitalized and depreciated. This discourages rehabilitation. Moreover, GST rebates for substantial renovations and new housing are not currently applicable to heritage buildings.

So what can be done to tip the balance in favour of preservation? Over the past year, HCF has been listening to heritage property developers, municipal planners, and grassroots heritage advocates. They have all told us that federal financial incentives would be powerful tools to help Canadians preserve their historic places. This spring, city councils from six major centres, including St. John's, Vancouver, Kitchener, the Region of Waterloo, Winnipeg, and Toronto, passed council resolutions calling for these kinds of financial incentives for heritage.

At HCF's annual conference in October, six prominent heritage property developers from across the country said that fiscal measures would greatly help them reuse buildings as well. All these groups have seen how effective federal initiatives such as the ecological gifts program have been in the conservation of ecologically significant land. They all believe similar strides could be made with historic buildings if the right tools are put in place.

Federal financial incentives to help preserve these places could take many forms, including measures for taxable corporations. As Professor Pacey mentioned this morning, the United States has a 20% tax credit for rehabilitation of historic properties, and it has been very successful for the past 30 years, with over 32,000 buildings rehabilitated. All told, $5 billion in federal tax credits have leveraged $36 billion in private investment.

The Canadian government's own commercial heritage properties incentive fund, also known as CHPIF, showed that financial measures could be just as successful here in Canada. The program was instrumental in resurrecting sixteen major properties. Two projects, the historic Leader Building in Regina and the Union Bank Tower in Winnipeg, had sat empty for over a decade. In downtown Saint John, New Brunswick, the CenterBeam Place project resurrected an entire block of deteriorating 19th century buildings—and I hope you have a chance to look at John F. Irving's article in the magazine I sent around.

These and other CHPIF projects have roughly the same five-to-one ratio of private-to-public funding. CHPIF funding tips the balance and makes these cost-effective for private companies to undertake.

Other kinds of financial incentives could also benefit non-profit groups that are rehabilitating historic buildings. Earlier this year, the federal government undertook an initiative with the Nature Conservancy of Canada to purchase and preserve ecologically sensitive land. The federal government's $225 million contribution will be matched by private donations. A similar national endowment fund of this type for heritage buildings would stimulate partnerships in heritage preservation.

In summary, our three recommendations are that the federal government introduce a federal rehabilitation tax incentive or comparable measure for taxable corporations, that it ensure existing tax measures accommodate the rehabilitation of historic buildings, and that it promote private–public partnerships for historic places by providing seed funding for a national heritage conservation endowment fund. With these, the federal government could be a powerful catalyst by putting in place key tools to help Canadians protect and invest in the heritage we all cherish.

Thank you.

2:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

We'll now move on to Imagine Canada. We have Ms. Teri Kirk, vice-president. The floor is yours.

2:50 p.m.

Teri Kirk Vice-President, Public Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Imagine Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee.

Imagine Canada looks into and out for Canada's charities and not-for-profit corporations. We're pleased to bring forward four recommendations to this committee. They've been developed in collaboration with, and formally endorsed by, some of Canada's best-loved national charities, known to all the committee members and to Canadians more broadly: the United Way of Canada and Centraide Canada; YMCA Canada and YWCA Canada; the Salvation Army; the Sport Matters Group, which was here earlier today; the Canadian Conference of the Arts; the Canadian Council for International Cooperation; Community Foundations of Canada; the Inuit Women of Canada; and the national charities and not-for-profit law section of l'Association du Barreau canadien and the Canadian Bar Association. These organizations work throughout the year to develop consistent positions to present to this committee that are concerns of charities and non-profits in Canada.

Of the four recommendations that we unanimously present to you today, members, two relate to tax policies that are already in place but that in our view have become unduly complex or are unclear and are therefore not achieving the tax policy objectives that they set out to achieve.

It's our recommendation that clarification of the charitable remainder trusts and the streamlining of the charitable donation tax credit would result in improved use of these important tax incentives for charitable giving. Details of those recommendations are in recommendations 2 and 3 of our brief.

Our two other recommendations, committee members, propose new measures to stimulate giving by Canadians to the charities of their choice.

Donations received by organizations in the sector from 22 million donors amount to $9 billion every year.

About 22 million Canadians donate $9 billion a year to charities. Tax policy is a critical foundation that underscores any society with high rates of giving, as we experience in Canada. We've all seen the creative and positive impact of the full deductibility of capital gains exemptions on gifts of stock. That was very welcome by the sector and had a stimulative effect on giving.

Other recommendations that we feel would be beneficial to Canadians were presented by Philanthropic Foundations of Canada when it appeared before this committee. They recommend that donors and other funders should be able to invest in and lend to charities as well as to donate and give in grants, and they should receive favourable tax treatments when they do so.

From the recipient organizations' point of view, charities should be able to access a full range of funding instruments, much like venture corporations, particularly when they're trying to raise significant funds of donated community-based capital to take on very significant causes such as disaster relief or building child care centres and so on.

Mr. Chair, I think I have a minute or so left. Do I?

2:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Yes.

2:55 p.m.

Vice-President, Public Policy and Regulatory Affairs, Imagine Canada

Teri Kirk

Thank you.

Canada's charities and not-for-profit corporations feel increasingly concerned that the federal government doesn't necessarily see the charitable sector as being within its scope or as necessarily federal jurisdiction or high on its policy agenda. I do want to remind the committee members that charities are creatures of the federal government. They are corporations that are given favourable tax benefits to carry out select activities in their communities that are deemed to be charities under the scope of the Income Tax Act.

We would ask that you designate a minister or perhaps a parliamentary secretary or a multi-party task force that would look at modernizing the fiscal framework to assist charities to secure the financing they need to meet the expectations of Canadians. We feel that Senator Marjory LeBreton has done an extraordinary job in developing a strategy around seniors; former Senator Michael Kirby played a similar role in developing a strategy in respect of mental health for Canadians. We would ask that this committee consider the merits of a strategy to improve the fiscal framework governing Canada's charities.

Thank you.