Evidence of meeting #25 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was billion.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marc Lee  Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives
Glen Hodgson  Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada
Ursula Menke  Commissioner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Jim Callon  Deputy Commissioner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

I'd like to call the meeting to order.

We want to thank our witnesses for coming forward. We have two sessions. For the first hour, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 11, 2008, we will have a briefing on independent fiscal forecasting. We have with us Mr. Marc Lee, senior economist from the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives, and from the Conference Board of Canada, Mr. Glen Hodgson and Mr. Matthew Stewart.

With that, we will start. I believe we have a presentation or two.

Mr. Lee, the floor is yours. We look forward to your presentation.

3:30 p.m.

Marc Lee Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for having me today as part of this distinguished panel.

I live in Vancouver, so greetings from British Columbia, where last week the provincial budget brought in the country's first carbon tax, something that I'm sure you'll be studying as time goes on.

The CCPA does not do independent macroeconomic forecasting. What we do is provide fiscal forecasts as part of our alternative federal budget process. On this front, our track record is quite good. We were the first in Canada to raise the alarm about understated revenues in federal budgets leading to lower than projected deficits and then, after 1998, larger than anticipated surpluses.

The macroeconomic framework for this year's alternative federal budget is one where economic growth projections have been lowered compared with last October, when the economic and fiscal update was tabled. Whereas the 2007 federal budget lowballed revenues, the re-estimated framework in the economic and fiscal update is much more accurate and provided the fiscal room for the government to make its multi-year tax cuts.

I won't dwell on the prospects for lower economic growth. Developments in the United States suggest that the U.S. has already entered a recession, and the nature of that downturn suggests it could be longer and deeper than recessions in the recent past.

What's at issue is to what extent the downturn for our biggest trading partner--with exports equal to a quarter of our gross domestic product--will affect Canada overall, and what sectors and regions will bear the worst of it.

My forecasts take the economic and fiscal update as a baseline and then make adjustments for changes in the rate of economic growth. The revised base case is on page 15 of the alternative federal budget, which was released today. I've brought copies for all of you. I won't review the remainder of that document, but I will leave it to you to steal our best ideas and recommend that they get put into practice.

Slower economic growth means much less fiscal room heading into budget 2008 than in budgets past. We still anticipate a surplus of $11 billion in 2007-08, as most of the tax cuts kick in during 2008-09 and years after, but based on the updated economic forecast from the Bank of Canada's January 22 monetary policy update, the available surplus drops to about $1 billion in 2008-09.

Now, I should caution that this is not accounting for the government's promise to reduce the federal debt by at least $3 billion. In order to meet that particular promise, and under this new revised framework, the government would actually have to cut spending by $4 billion next year or it would have to revisit some of its tax cuts.

Personally, I would reject the notion that paying down federal debt is a top priority for the country right now. This includes the government's promise to make a $10 billion payment on the federal debt out of the current year's surplus.

In the out years, the surplus in the base case rises to $3 billion in 2009-10 and to $6 billion in 2010-11.

I'd like to underline the fact that if there were to be a major slowdown in Canada, because there is so little fiscal room the budget would naturally move into a deficit position. This is entirely the consequence of multi-year tax cuts from the economic and fiscal update and previous budgets.

The EFU tax cuts build on tax cuts announced in the 2006 and 2007 budgets. Fully phased in, the total revenue loss from the EFU is $14.7 billion per year by 2012-13. But if those previously announced tax cuts are taken into consideration, the total revenue loss from tax cuts by 2012-13 is an alarming $40.2 billion per year. This is a number I got right out of the economic and fiscal update itself.

We therefore need to ask what the federal government would do in the event that there was a slowdown or recession that pushes the budget into deficit. The government has promised to balance the budget, so assuming that they are unwilling to revisit their tax cuts, the only choice would be to cut spending.

In a technical paper for the alternative federal budget released in January—I believe copies were distributed to committee members--I modelled four scenarios of economic downturn and recession, again relative to the EFU baseline, each increasingly more pessimistic than the previous.

Growth estimates for the non-recession years of 2007 and 2010 are essentially the same as the EFU baseline in all scenarios. Essentially what we are modelling is a slowdown or recession in 2008, with a recovery year in 2009.

One note of caution in comparing the alternative federal budget to the technical paper is that today's AFB uses a revised GDP figure for 2007, so the forecast surplus in 2007-08 falls from $11.5 billion in the technical paper to $11 billion in the alternative federal budget.

In the technical paper, scenarios one and two are slowdown scenarios but not actual recessions. They show that it wouldn't take much before the budget reverted to deficit. These scenarios can be seen graphically on page 4 of the technical paper and in more detail in the appendix.

Scenarios three and four model actual recessions rather than slowdowns. In my worst case scenario, the deficit hits $6.2 billion in 2008-09, rising to $12.7 billion in 2009-10 before falling back to just over $10 billion in 2010-11. In terms of tipping the fiscal balance, a nominal GDP growth rate under 2.65% will lead to a deficit for the 2008-09 fiscal year.

The policy question, of course, is what should be done in response to a recession. The prospect of a downturn puts the recent tax cuts into sharp relief. Should the government hold the line on its tax cuts as its primary policy response? And to what extent would things such as the tax back guarantee, which I would argue is a gimmick that converts savings on debt interest payments arising from surpluses into tax cuts.... What would happen to that should surpluses turn into deficits? Does it in fact become a tax increase guarantee?

In response to a downturn, I believe the government should be prepared to run a deficit. Personal and corporate income tax revenues and GST revenues will minimally slow and possibly decline. Automatic stabilizers such as the employment insurance program have been greatly weakened since the mid-1990s, but in the face of a downturn they will push the budget towards deficit.

Surpluses on the EI account have already shrunk a great deal because of rate cuts, from an excess of $4 billion of premiums over benefits paid in 2001-02 to an estimated $2 billion in 2007-08. If unemployment were to rise, the EI account would turn to deficit rather quickly.

The conventional wisdom in Ottawa is a deep antipathy towards deficits under any circumstances. But I would argue that having saved for a rainy day, the federal government should be prepared to use the umbrella of deficit spending if need be. Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio fell from 68% in 1996-97 to 32% in 2006-07. The government has substantial room to run a deficit if it so chooses. Compared with those of other G7 countries, Canada's net liabilities are the lowest by a fair margin, with other countries running deficits in recent years, in contrast with Canada's surpluses.

In the United States, the Bush-Bernanke stimulus package, which has been criticized as not being stimulative enough, comes in a context of a previous year's deficit above 2% of GDP. In Canada, an equivalent deficit would be above $30 billion. That's not what I'm recommending; it's just to put it in perspective for Canadian audiences.

I believe there is much work to be done on climate change, poverty, transportation, and so forth, which make a compelling case for public spending as the vehicle for action. Federal expenditures have recovered somewhat, to about 13% of GDP from a low of 12% in 2000--01, but even this amount is three to five percentage points of GDP lower than levels that prevailed up to the early 1990s.

To put this in dollar terms, four percentage points of GDP amounts to about $60 billion, a fairly considerable sum.

There are detractors, of course, who would prefer to rely solely on monetary policy and who view fiscal policy as ineffective and ill-timed. I disagree. While we need to lower interest rates, this is increasingly an ineffective policy, because there is little ripple effect from the changes in overnight rates from the Bank of Canada to the rest of the interest rate structure. We are seeing, if anything, higher rates from banks for commercial and household lending due to the credit crunch, while the flight to quality in financial markets is driving down interest rates on medium-term government bonds.

We need to put fiscal policy options on the table. The critique that fiscal policy comes too late has some merit, to the extent that recessions are short-lived and fiscal measures involve a lot of long-term planning—for example, building a new bridge or a highway.

But other fiscal measures can be brought to bear. The key is to get money quickly into the hands of people who will spend it. I already mentioned EI. The government should consider measures that would enhance eligibility for EI, so that more unemployed workers would benefit, as currently only about one-third of the unemployed are eligible for EI.

Another measure would be to enhance the GST credit, which would quickly put more money in the hands of low-income Canadians. Other targeted measures could be considered for specific regions and industries that are hard hit.

As for infrastructure, we should be prepared with some big ticket items that we need anyway. The labour market is currently strong, but the fallout for construction could be large over the next year or two.

The fact that the U.S. recession is being driven by a dramatic fall in asset prices--in the past such an event would be called a depression, not a recession--suggests that this will not be your garden variety post-war recession with a quick drop and return to business as usual. This could take a couple of years to play out, and any resulting slack in the employment market could be absorbed by needed capital investments in things like social housing, public transit, and early learning.

That's my presentation. I'd be happy to entertain any questions after the next presentation.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

I believe the Conference Board of Canada is here. Do you just want to answer questions, or would you like the floor for a few minutes?

February 25th, 2008 / 3:40 p.m.

Glen Hodgson Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Actually, Mr. Chairman, can I make four brief comments to open, because we've had a chance to hear from Mr. Lee, and I thought I'd say a couple of things about our perspective on the world.

Message number one is on the U.S. outlook. We actually have not called for a U.S. recession in our forecast. If you look at the consensus forecast on Wall Street, it's about 50-50, and we're with the 50% who believe that the U.S. is going through a very tough period. If it feels bad right now, it's because it is. This is probably the worst quarter, but we don't think a recession is the most likely outcome. Our forecast for U.S. growth this year is about 2.1%, which is smack at the centre of the consensus forecast on Wall Street.

That said, I think we've probably given insufficient weight to another phenomenon, which is called “stagflation”. There I'd actually agree with what Mr. Lee said at the end of his comments, that the U.S. consumer is hugely overburdened with the combination of falling house prices, a weak equity market, very high global oil prices--and the U.S. imports about two-thirds of its oil--and heavy indebtedness. Debt is fine as long as the other side of your balance sheet is going up in value, but what's happened is that the average American is indebted up to about 130% of their income, yet their house price is now falling. That looks like a recipe, to me, for really weak recovery and weak growth for a number of years to come. There I would agree with Mr. Lee. Two years might actually be a short period. It could be three to five years of crawling along, underperformance by the U.S. consumer, which is 70% of U.S. GDP. So that's an important number.

The inflation side, unfortunately, comes from the fact that appreciating currency and high commodity prices, whether it's wheat or oil, is really feeding the underlying inflationary forces in the United States' economy. The last three months have seen inflation of almost 7% in the United States. If you look at the inflationary forces around the world, China, India, and a lot of other countries right now are unfortunately seeing a lot of stimulus in terms of prices.

So I think it's probably a fairly even bet as to whether the U.S. is facing a recession or what I would see as a much more serious problem, which is stagflation, going forward. That could last a long time. It can last into multiple years.

That's important for the Canadian outlook, and that's my second point, because it means that anybody who is selling to the U.S. consumer, any business that's really relying on exports to the U.S., is going to be in a tight position for a number of years to come. We've seen Canadian exports to the U.S. more or less flat in real terms for the last eight years. If you measure the annual growth rate, it's about 1% or less. We used to rely very heavily on sales to the U.S. as a source of stimulus. We can no longer do that. That raises some really interesting questions for our trade and economic policies going forward.

We were actually the most optimistic of all the private sector forecasters right now on our Canadian outlook. We think the Canadian economy can grow at 2.5% this year, but it will be very uneven sectorally and geographically. So the west is best--we think 3% growth or beyond is quite attainable for all four western provinces. Central Canada is very challenged because of the heavy reliance upon sales to U.S. consumers. The industrial heartland is very much challenged. I'm sure you've heard from many manufacturers that have talked about the challenges they're facing. Then Atlantic Canada is bringing up the rear a bit. We do think that growth of around 2.5% is attainable, but again, this is probably the worst quarter.

It feels like we're in a real slowdown right now because we are going through a period of slower growth, but I would point to the fact that we did have growth in the fourth quarter of last year, and the job creation numbers for January were remarkably strong. As we look at all the evidence, we again don't see quite as pessimistic a story as do some other forecasters out there.

One other thing I'll mention on our Canadian outlook, and that's the outlook for inflation. We see the inflation numbers coming way off. It's actually the complete reverse of what we're seeing in the United States. We're the beneficiary of high commodity prices as a domestic economy and we have an appreciating currency, so our forecast for Canadian inflation for this year is around 1.5%. That leaves a lot of latitude for the Bank of Canada to gently cut rates through the course of the year. It also, however, means that nominal income growth--and that's what governments tax--is going to be a little slower than what we or the Department of Finance foresaw last fall. That may well create a challenge for the federal government in terms of going into the budget, because it means revenues will be a little bit weaker than we'd all foreseen.

Very quickly, on a third point, I just want to do a quick contrast between revenue implications on our side and what the government is saying. We haven't formally run our model that we do in terms of one of the four forecasters of record on the fiscal deficit or surplus, but my colleague Matthew Stewart has done a little back-of-the-envelope work, and our best guess for this fiscal year is a surplus of around $11.6 billion or $11.5 billion, which is pretty much the same number as Finance put out in their fiscal outlook back in October. For next year, we have pulled our forecast surplus way down to about $3.4 billion. Finance is forecasting $4.3 billion. So it's in the same ballpark, but you can see that the latitude in the budget for innovative things is getting squeezed. We have come up with more or less the same number for fiscal year 2009-10. We're now forecasting a surplus of around $3.4 billion; Finance had a number of $4.3 billion. Again, a billion dollars on a budget of $230 billion is really just noise.

So our view is very close to or aligning with that of Finance.

The last thing I'll mention, Chairman, is that we're in the midst of doing a series of papers on tax reform. It's an area where the Conference Board has not done a lot of work in the past, but I thought, as chief economist, it was important we get on the record in areas where we need to rethink the tax system on a national basis.

Members might be interested in seeing the work we've done. The first one was on cities and thinking about how to create fiscal capacity for our cities. That came out in mid-January. The second one is actually on green taxes and the use of market instruments to put a price on carbon. We published that about a month ago, and have had a fair amount of media attention.

The things we plan to put out over the course of the year will be around sales tax harmonization, where we will strongly encourage the provinces to harmonize with the GST system—which would be a real boost to productivity, particularly for small business. We're going to look at business tax reform and things like getting rid of capital taxes faster, and we will be thinking of other things we can do to improve business competitiveness. Then we'll look at individual tax reform, based upon the demographics we're facing, because we are now at a point where we argue constantly that we're facing a labour market crunch going forward and we have to think about aligning our tax system with the demographic realities in our labour market.

Thank you, Chairman.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

I'd just inform you that the committee has actually made a decision to vault into a study on taxation, and your input would be very much appreciated. That notice has gone out as of today, so you might want to check our website on that. It's very timely.

That takes us to our question and answer part of the meeting.

We'll start with Mr. Pacetti. The floor is yours.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing.

Glen, before I ask you a question, could you repeat the numbers for your predictions for 2008-09 and 2009-10? What's your revenue prediction, because we're here for two reasons: to see what your estimates or projections are for the next year or two—I don't want to go more than two years ahead—and to get your opinion on the planned independent budgetary office. So perhaps you could just stick to those.

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

I'll start with the numbers.

Running our model takes two weeks, and as a not-for-profit, we can't afford to do that on our own dime, effectively. But Matthew has a pretty good feeling for how the model works, and the estimates we've done are for a surplus of $3.4 billion next year—that would be 2008-09—and the same number for 2009-10.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Based on what revenues?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

He didn't do an independent number for revenues, but I think we can assume, for example, that spending is pretty much under control.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

That's fine. I don't mean to interrupt, but my time's limited. I just want to ask another question.

You spoke about growth and put a lot of emphasis on it—1% or 2%—which is going to affect revenue. Will that affect spending as well?

3:50 p.m.

Vice-President and Chief Economist, Conference Board of Canada

Glen Hodgson

Not as much as some economists like to think. There's something called automatic stabilizers, the EI program, for example. If we have a rise in the unemployment rate and people are applying in the areas where they can actually access EI—more in the east than the west—that would kick in. But for the most part, I think spending can be controlled; it's not as dependent upon the rate of economic growth as revenues are.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you.

Mr. Lee, in your alternative budget, I see that most of your numbers are.... Well, I'm also comparing it with this paper, where you have ranges, and your ranges are from whether it will be a moderate slowdown to a major recession. Only the revenues or the government intake vary at best by $10 billion, more or less, depending on the year we forecast out to.

I see your expenses don't vary, but are your expenses, your program spending amounts, in this book here? Are they already accounted for?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

Expenditure revenues are essentially identical to what's in the economic and fiscal update. So those are the government's numbers.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Right, but they vary depending on whether you think it will be a moderate slowdown or a major recession.

My question is, given that your spending number is exactly in line with the number in the economic update, are none of the items you're recommending in the book in your forecast? Is that correct?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

Sorry?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

None of the items that you're recommending in your alternative budget—

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

We have a separate table, table 3, below the updated status quo framework, which includes both our recommended revenue and our expenditure measures.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

What page is that?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

It's page 15.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

I'm trying to calculate, because we don't have that much time here, where your spending is versus what the government is planning on spending, let's say, for the year 2008-09. The government is planning on spending $207.6 billion. Yours would be the $207 plus the $16.2 billion just below it?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

Exactly.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

And with that you would run a balanced budget, because you're going to get an additional $15 billion of revenue. Is that correct?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

That's correct.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Where do I get the backup for the $15 billion additional in revenues?

3:50 p.m.

Senior Economist, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives

Marc Lee

That would be on page 21.