Evidence of meeting #35 for Finance in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was savings.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Murray Candlish  As an Individual
Larry Elford  As an Individual
Wynne Miles  As an Individual
Diane Urquhart  Independent Consulting Analyst, As an Individual
Steven Furino  Treasurer, Beaver Creek Housing Co-operative
Andrée De Serres  Professor, University of Quebec in Montreal, School of Science management, Coalition pour la protection des investisseurs
Robert Pouliot  Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Coalition pour la protection des investisseurs

10:40 a.m.

Independent Consulting Analyst, As an Individual

Diane Urquhart

First of all, every major bank has already determined that errors and omissions were made in the offer. They don't say so quite so clearly, but they have made cash settlements with their own retail direct customers. National Bank put a cap of $2 million. We don't know what the caps are in the rest of the banking system. So what has happened is that the wholesalers who sold the tainted product to the independents are saying they are not responsible. Canaccord and Prudential are investment banks themselves--

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

So wholesalers in this place would be Scotiabank.

10:40 a.m.

Independent Consulting Analyst, As an Individual

Diane Urquhart

Scotiabank.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

Okay, so Scotiabank sells to Canaccord, Canaccord sells to the retailer. So Canaccord, presumably, doesn't have enough money to cover this.

10:40 a.m.

Independent Consulting Analyst, As an Individual

Diane Urquhart

That's what they say the problem was.

10:40 a.m.

Liberal

John McKay Liberal Scarborough—Guildwood, ON

So where is Canaccord's money coming from?

10:40 a.m.

Independent Consulting Analyst, As an Individual

Diane Urquhart

In the offer that took place yesterday, the amount of notes the Canaccord customers get in the restructuring has been bought by an unnamed buyer. We surmise that the unnamed buyer either is a member of the pan-Canadian committee or is Scotiabank or another bank and has decided to participate with Canaccord in having the Canaccord retail customers' problem go away. Canaccord topped up that base purchase to the full par amount, and yesterday Canaccord took a $54 million writeoff. So it was very painful, and probably for the first time in Canadian history, a financial institution was brought to heel and to account for selling flawed product that caused damage to their customers.

10:40 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Crête.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Would it be appropriate for the committee to schedule another appearance for you before April 25? Would that be useful for you in getting justice?

10:40 a.m.

As an Individual

Wynne Miles

I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Would it be appropriate for the committee to schedule another appearance for you before April 25, in view of the time pressure? Ms. Urquhart said just now that the committee was responsible, among others, for the Cannacord proposal. Is it important for us to have another meeting with you to update ourselves before April 25?

10:40 a.m.

As an Individual

Wynne Miles

Yes, thank you.

I'm sorry, but I'm hard of hearing. That's why I didn't hear you.

Absolutely. There are so many more questions, there's so much more to be covered, and there are so many more victims who haven't been heard.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Does anyone want to add anything to that? Do you all share the same view?

10:40 a.m.

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Coalition pour la protection des investisseurs

Robert Pouliot

Mr. Crête, I think that there are still investors who do not know that they have ABCP in their portfolios. The more we raise the profile of the matter, the more people will check for themselves.

10:40 a.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Do you think that the government should take any short-term measures? Do you have enough of a handle on the April 25 decision? Are you looking to the Minister of Finance or the Government of Canada to take a position that would give you a fair chance to accept a reasonable offer?

10:45 a.m.

Independent Consulting Analyst, As an Individual

Diane Urquhart

I would like to make the point that it's my understanding that Juroviesky and Ricci, with their sublegal counsel, intends to enter the court next week. They're going to raise the issue that there are retail owners who are being asked to vote yes, and to waive their legal rights. So they will bring it to the court.

I'm not a lawyer and I haven't seen their documentation. I have prepared my own affidavit with respect to what happened. But I would surmise that they're going to make a case that this vote cannot proceed, as it's a miscarriage of justice for the retail customer group, on the basis of the evidence and the reasonable causes of action they have to seek remedy.

Obviously we have a judge who is managing the CCAA process, but it would be my objective that all eyes be on the CCAA judicial process, because there is nothing in the law, in the CCAA act in and of itself, in my opinion, that has obliged the pan-Canadian group to go into a proceeding that requires everyone to waive their legal rights.

If institutions are prepared to do so, and have negotiated such with the international banks who have the right to call default, then so be it; let them proceed to vote and to waive their rights. But in the interest of the country, the economy, and in not having a miscarriage of justice and this stumbling into a public policy issue about justice, we would like to see the assistance of the Government of Canada with whatever mechanism they have to persuade reasonable thought to be brought to bear on this so that these families are not squashed. If they are squashed, we will have a public opinion crisis on our hands, because Canadians will have had their life savings stripped and their rights to sue removed.

So we have a very, very significant adverse situation.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Before all of his time is gone, I'm going to allow Mr. Elford to answer.

10:45 a.m.

As an Individual

Larry Elford

Thank you.

I think he had two questions, one being whether we should meet again before the 25th. Personally, I have a full-time job to go to, so I wouldn't be able to do so, but thank you for the invitation. I would love to come back, however, if this committee or this government considers convening a royal commission or a judicial inquiry into financial abuse and white collar crimes.

My fear is that this issue may get blanketed and smoothed over, putting us on a shaky road to having the same episode again. I would like to bring information to a judicial inquiry showing that Canadians are being abused by $30 billion per year, every year—and amounts slightly above that.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Merrifield

Thank you.

Just to remind the committee, we're not here to influence the private sector in any way on a decision that is upcoming; we're here to investigate how it happened and perhaps to put in place protective measures in the future, so that it won't happen again.

We'll now move on to Mr. Del Mastro.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Elford, just for the benefit of the committee, can you tell us what your qualifications are or what your work experience has been, and so forth?

10:45 a.m.

As an Individual

Larry Elford

I worked for 20 years in the financial business as a retail adviser. I left and retired in 2004, after deciding that the ethics and the codes of conduct of my industry did not meet the promises made. I now fly a helicopter over the Columbia Icefield. So I probably have a dream job, but I've devoted by life to the financial industry and I feel somewhat sorry that I had to walk away from it.

10:45 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Thank you. I appreciate that, because you've made a number of fairly significant contentions here today and I just wanted some background so that we could back those up a little bit.

You've correctly pointed out that this is a provincial regulatory matter, because the provincial securities regulators were on the job here—or, as you've indicated, not quite on the job. But it is their responsibility.

10:50 a.m.

As an Individual

10:50 a.m.

Conservative

Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON

Now, our government and our finance minister have been quite adamant about the need for a common securities regulator in Canada. Ms. Urquhart, who appeared here last year supporting the government's decision on trusts, also spoke at that time of the need for a common securities regulator, and yet we still have pushback from the provinces.

What would you say to the provinces that are pushing back and preventing us from getting a common securities regulator in place? What would you say to them about the need for a common securities regulator?

10:50 a.m.

As an Individual

Larry Elford

I would cite Richard Nixon and say that the same people who created this problem cannot be relied to solve it.