Finance Committee on April 28th, 2008

[Andrea Lyon]

I can't comment on the specific legal drafting. I can say, certainly, that the advice from our counsel was that this was an appropriate way to draft the language so as to accord the discretion to the visa officer and so as not to impose an outright prohibition.

[Martha Hall Findlay, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Again, my point is that the concern we have is exactly with the discretion, without anything else to suggest that the discretion be used in a way that would still allow people to apply who really do need to apply on humanitarian and compassionate grounds. Our concern is that this can be used, with open discretion, to deny people that some bureaucrat or political person might feel was arguably cheating the system, and that discretion might be used inappropriately.

[Andrea Lyon]

What we have, in the context of the amendment, is the overall parameters, in terms of the authorities that can be exercised. The instructions, once they're issued, are going to elaborate on a number of things. One will be those priority occupations—the numbers permitted, the disposition of various applications, issues such as H and C applications—so that people abroad will have a clear sense as to what the rules of the game are going to be.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

Monsieur Gaudet, you have a couple of questions.

[Roger Gaudet, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You say that 900,000 people are waiting to enter the country. I don't understand why you would have waited for 900,000 people to begin lining up before amending the legislation.

Is it because there are not enough officials working at the department? I do not understand. Is this a bureaucracy problem? If 900,000 people are waiting, then there is a problem. I have been a mayor. The municipality was not very large, but I do know that problems have to be resolved when they occur. Why wait until there are 900,000 people lining up? Is this a problem of bureaucracy? Can you answer this question?

To my mind, this makes no sense. Was our legislation poorly drafted? Do you believe that the bill we are considering will accelerate things? Do you think there will a shorter waiting list?

If the problem is one of bureaucracy... Where I come from, people say that public servants are “pencil pushers”. I'm beginning to believe them.

Of the 900,000 people waiting to enter Canada, 600,000, 700,000, or 800,000 are probably undesirables. Why are those people still on your list?

I simply would like an answer.

[Andrea Lyon]

While I certainly agree with you that the 925,000 is a problem, I don't know that I would necessarily agree with your depiction of officials' work on it. But it is an issue that we need to address, because as I mentioned earlier, and I think as the minister pointed out, it is having a serious impact in terms of the efficiency and the effectiveness of the overall system.

One of the primary problems with the system as it exists right now is the obligation to process all applications. Canada is a very attractive and popular place, and every year we receive far more applicants than we can reasonably absorb--by absorb, I mean having the capacity to ensure appropriate integration--so we're obliged to establish certain targets in terms of the number of people we accept each year.

I agree with you that the problem has been long-standing and that it's growing. But from an official's perspective, we believe that the investments and the amendments that have been proposed in Bill C-50 will help us grapple with the problem and gradually bring down the backlog so as to ensure that we're as competitive as some of our other immigrant-receiving counterparts.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

We want to leave time....

You have one more question, Mr. Pacetti?

Okay, keep it very, very tight. Go ahead.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

It's a finance-related question.

I used to sit on the immigration committee, and one of my favourite questions was how much it costs to bring in an immigrant, on a yearly basis. I know it's a complicated calculation, but we can never get an answer. We're still not clear whether the goal is to bring in fewer people or more people, so I'm not even sure if.... Last year the government didn't respect its commitment. I believe they wanted to bring in between 240,000 and 260,000 people, and only 220,000 were brought in.

With the amount of money that is now being allocated, do you want to be bringing in more immigrants or less?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Could we have a quick answer on that, and then we'll move on.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

And with that, how much money would it cost? Is it $72 million, $700 million, $22 million, or $109 million?

[Andrea Lyon]

I don't have statistics with respect to a per-immigrant cost. I can address the issue with respect to our objective. Our objective is as framed in those levels exercises, and that is to maximize the number.

The minister talked about the acute demographic challenges we're facing as a nation. We're not unique in that respect, but we do have an aging population, we do have certain labour force demands--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

But to bring in the goal of 250,000--

[Andrea Lyon]

--and we do have an obligation to ensure that by 2012 we have enough numbers to respond to the labour force, because immigrants will be the sole source of our labour force growth.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

It's a question, and I'm not getting....

What is the cost of bringing in 250,000 immigrants?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

That's it.

Thank you very much to the department for coming forward. I appreciate your being here and the time that was spent. We'll dismiss that part of the meeting.

We will now ask Mr. Mulcair to put forward his motion, please.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

I'd like to speak to our guests, Mr. Chair. The motion can wait. I prefer to benefit from the presence of departmental officials and ask a question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

You'd prefer not to put your motion forward today?

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

That's right, it can wait another day. I will ask a question to the departmental officials who are here with us today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Okay.

Just before we do that, we will allow Mr. Pacetti to continue, because we do have a few more minutes.

Go ahead, if you would like to continue.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

The question is very simple. To meet the goal, let's say, of 250,000 immigrants, what is it going to cost?

[Andrea Lyon]

I'm sorry, I just don't have that number.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

How can you not have it? Somebody has to have it. If the Department of Finance, the Department of Immigration, the Minister of Finance, and the Minister of Immigration don't have it, who is supposed to have it?

[Andrea Lyon]

Well, I can tell you some of the factors involved in this. We have 90 missions across the globe dealing with these sorts of issues. We have about 1,500 officers. Processing times are going to vary from mission to mission. There are costs associated with processing times. There are going to be complexities associated with processing individual applicants--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I don't mean to interrupt, but our time is limited.

[Andrea Lyon]

--because some people may have security concerns that cause further investigations.