Finance Committee on April 28th, 2008

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I understand all that. I come from a--

[Andrea Lyon]

So there is certainly a range of factors that one would have to take into account.

I regret I don't have more specific numbers for you.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I understand all this. It's not the first time we are bringing in immigrants, but if we're going to change the way we do things, it's going to require money.

How much money is it going to require to actually bring in the 250,000 immigrants? You don't have to give it to me to the dollar, but round it to the nearest billion, if you like. At least you should be able to come within a couple of billion bucks.

If you don't want to commit to it, you can get back to us.

[Andrea Lyon]

The levels exercise that we have, and have had, has been founded on a number of factors. One would be the overall departmental budget, which I think is $1.4 billion, or something in that ballpark. That is one of the myriad factors that allows us to establish what those levels are.

Provinces have concerns. They have certain financial obligations in terms of supporting--

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Do we need to increase the $1.4 billion?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Your time is gone.

Mr. Del Mastro, you'll be the last questioner. Then I have an announcement to make to the committee, and then we'll call it.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Madam Lyon, I have a couple of questions.

I'm assuming that departmental budgets are based somewhat on past experience as well as on current need. Would I be correct in assuming that?

I suppose those questions you just dealt with on budgeting and how much money is needed were fairly open-ended. I'm sure we look at past experience as well as departmental need for things like equipment, personnel, and so forth. Is that how the budgets are established?

[Andrea Lyon]

We do indeed. Just to give you an example, posting people abroad is a fairly expensive undertaking. As I mentioned, we have some 1,500 people abroad, including Canada-based and locally engaged staff. It is, indeed, a fairly expensive undertaking.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

Could you elaborate on how the proposed changes will ensure that there's no discrimination based on race, ethnicity, place of origin, and so forth?

[Andrea Lyon]

As I mentioned in response to one of the other questions, one of the important considerations that we will need to take into account as we develop the instructions is our range of obligations and commitments internationally and domestically.

Domestically, we have the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the objectives in it that require us to ensure an appropriate balance among the various programs. We also have our obligations under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that ensure that we apply the law and exercise all our authority in full conformity with those rights and obligations, which explicitly prohibit any form of discrimination.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

I think all of us as members of Parliament can speak to our experience with this issue. I know Mr. Menzies spoke of an issue that he's dealt with for some time. I have experience in my office. I'm not that far from Toronto, and I have applicants bringing files to my office that are also being worked on in other MPs' offices. I know there are incidents of people reapplying. There are various methods of trying to end-run around the system. It's because the system is grinding to a halt. It's because it's taking so long. So I support these amendments that are aimed at speeding up the system.

Can you elaborate on how the applications of those people who have applied, the current applications, will be dealt with, how the old system will be transformed, and how those people can rest assured that their place in the queue won't be simply forgotten?

[Andrea Lyon]

The amendments contain some transition provisions that deal with applicants both pre- and post-February 27. For those who are in the backlog, that is the pre-February 27 backlog, the minister's obligation and undertaking is to bring that number down as quickly as possible, because it is that enormous amount that is constricting the overall system.

By way of the budgetary amounts that were accorded to the department, we'll undertake a number of activities in terms of letter-writing campaigns to confirm people's interest in some of the administrative efficiency measures that the minister talked about--for example, centralized processing and coding applications so that we can then refer to the provinces' occupational groups that may match provincial demands.

There is the resource issue in terms of buttressing resources in some of our higher-volume missions, such as Manila and Delhi, to make sure they have some of the tools to chew through the backlog as quickly as they can.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Can you please confirm for me whether the current system forces immigration officials to process applications for people who have either already immigrated to other nations or who have in fact died since they've put their application in? Do they remain in the queue and still need to be processed?

[Andrea Lyon]

We're obliged to process all applications.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you.

Monsieur Mulcair has insisted on a couple of quick questions, so I'll allow him the last couple of minutes.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

It is not so much that I had insisted to such an extent; it is what you had proposed, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Lyon, earlier you talked about ethnic and national origins. Do you collect statistics on the ethnic and national origin of the 925,000 people who are waiting?

[Andrea Lyon]

I don't, and I don't recall referring to ethnic or national origin. I was referring to the resources at certain of our missions.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

In a previous answer, you raised the matter of the ethnic and national origins of people. You were telling us that the department responsible for these 925,000 people does not possess any statistical data on the ethnic or national origin of those applying to immigrate to Canada.

Is that what you're testifying before this committee this afternoon?

[Andrea Lyon]

We have national and regional information, but we do not have ethnic breakdowns.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

Earlier, you referred to ethnic and national origins as regards the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, saying that the matter goes against the charter.

Therefore, the best way to make sure that the department is not ill-intentioned would be to publish this information. Is the information you hold on ethnic, regional or national origins public? If so, where could we access it?

[Andrea Lyon]

We can certainly get you that information. Some of it is available on our website. Some is available in the levels plan. We can certainly provide the committee with that.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

For the public, therefore, it would be easy to monitor the progression of this backlog, this log-jam, if you will. One could monitor the processing of these 925,000 cases to make sure that there is no discrimination based on ethnic, national, regional, or religious origin. That would be possible, I assume.

[Andrea Lyon]

We have the distinction, I think, of being one of the most highly litigated departments in the government, so I think if there were to be any suggestion, then there would certainly be challenges brought to bear.

[Thomas Mulcair, NDP, Outremont, QC]

That was not my question. I simply wanted to make sure that we would be in a position to monitor things. It's one thing to be able to pursue litigation, but another to obtain proof. Therefore, we are starting with 925,000 people. You have documentation, statistics categorized along lines of national and regional origin. We are therefore able to monitor this. As the department implements the minister's solutions, we will be able to judge whether or not they were the right ones. She said that it was not her intention. But we will be in a position to measure what truly goes on in reality. That is what you are telling me.